White Spirit Bonuses

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Neus
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Re: White Spirit Bonuses

Postby Neus » Mon Aug 08, 2016 7:12 pm

I don't think this is overbearing at all. You gain benefits, yes, but you also take on a substantial risk; the Exorcism enchant, which is also more powerful in the beta. There's also Curate's Antithesis, which affects Possessed, even if it's 'only' 7.5% (still a decent increase).

Lolzytripd wrote:damage skills don't get anymore scaling by going over, and just a single+1 doesn't throw any skill into the overbearing end.


They do, actually. Most skills that have scaling benefits behave this way, but not all of them.

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Re: White Spirit Bonuses

Postby Rendar » Mon Aug 08, 2016 7:39 pm

the "great risk" isn't there for Vampires who will be inherently stronger with this sort of update. Also, people won't be able to tell if you're possessed or the like at a glance, so it will devolve into people just keeping it perma-equipped because this instigates a meta of "NOW I CAN GRIND FOR SPIRITS TO GET +HP/FP AND SKILL RANKS FOR FREEE" which makes auto-hits, Cobra, and a ton of other things even better.

This allows for certain skills to get out of hand, like Crystal Rose, 75% Ice atk, 130% wpn attack to a large AoE? That's better than sear. You thought Hexer was bad before? Wait until it's getting 75/75 Earth/Dark attack and 100% wpn attack and inflicts level 36 poison. Death Knighting? +12 to all stats and cheaper to cast. Etc... etc... etc.

This doesn't need to exist in the game in it's current state, and only further encourages the vampire meta, as well as everyone just going religious zealots w/ holy sword because SOMEONES GONNA DO IT AND YOU GOTTA SMITE A BITCH FOR 1.75x DAMAGE.

So. Please. Let's... just... not.
Galeon Zviera's turn.
Critical Hit! Galeon Zviera attacks Jammer with Floating Red Letter and hits them!
Jammer takes 8420 Pierce damage.

Tiny Fawn Girl recovered 8550 HP.
Isabelline recovered 8550 HP.


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Re: White Spirit Bonuses

Postby Neus » Mon Aug 08, 2016 7:58 pm

No offense, but you (and several others) tend to go in too hard on your kneejerk opinions, sometimes without even having all the information (that youkai topic is a good example). You're not likely to convince me with weak arguments like the one you posted (vampires are at the greatest risk for Exorcism enchantments because it always affects them, for example). I'll respond to one other thing you mentioned though.

Sderg wrote:so, people won't be able to tell if you're possessed or the like at a glance,


This was something I thought about as well. I was going to add battle skills granted by Perception (which lets you reveal is someone is possessed or not) and Release (which lets you have a chance to exorcise spirits mid-battle), but I wanted to get this out soon and I don't think waiting and seeing if it's necessary is a bad idea.

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Re: White Spirit Bonuses

Postby Rendar » Mon Aug 08, 2016 8:57 pm

Vampires always being at risk of this means that they can simply use it with impunity though. They take 0 penalties from using white spirits, and only gain higher scaling skills because of it.

Not to mention Brighter Darkness also allows them to reduce the maximum damage they take from it by 25%, meaning that it'll be 1.5x, compared to other spirit users who take 1.75x.

This is one of the key flaws, and has ALWAYS been a flaw with Vampires.
Galeon Zviera's turn.
Critical Hit! Galeon Zviera attacks Jammer with Floating Red Letter and hits them!
Jammer takes 8420 Pierce damage.

Tiny Fawn Girl recovered 8550 HP.
Isabelline recovered 8550 HP.


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Re: White Spirit Bonuses

Postby Spoops » Mon Aug 08, 2016 9:14 pm

I agree with Trex, implementation of this system will only cause many issues of balance even right now and in the near future when more class concepts are released, it's not worth it.

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Re: White Spirit Bonuses

Postby Sarah54321 » Mon Aug 08, 2016 9:29 pm

Agreed with Spoops and T-Rex. This will cause so many inbalance issues it'll just crash things, and besides that, it would make people just constantly run around for the 'Right' spirits, thus ruining RP.
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Re: White Spirit Bonuses

Postby Kameron8 » Mon Aug 08, 2016 10:21 pm

Neus wrote:No offense, but you (and several others) tend to go in too hard on your kneejerk opinions, sometimes without even having all the information (that youkai topic is a good example). You're not likely to convince me with weak arguments like the one you posted (vampires are at the greatest risk for Exorcism enchantments because it always affects them, for example). I'll respond to one other thing you mentioned though.


While I absolutely give credence to the fact that we overreact over new things that are implemented, there are at least two things I believe you should address.

1. Are you going to forbid spirits from boosting outliers? Things like Snake Dancer and the DH Stances with Gradient blur are disproportionately powerful with a single rank over, because they were designed to never exceed the cap.

2. And, if that is the case, do you honestly want to consider rank breaking for every skill created in the future? This will be something that constantly needs an eye kept on it, because skills like those mentioned in point #1 will come up if it isn't.

Since holy weakness isn't additive, there is no drawback to allowing yourself to be possessed if you already have the weakness. Furthermore, this bonus will require highly specific spirits to optimize your setup, and has the largest grinding curve I've seen to date on SL2. The idea of hunting for 4 spirits in very specific skills when only 1-3 spawn an hour reminds me of the wave-style respawns monsters in SL1 had. Tack on the fact that you lose some of them at 0 HP, and you have a very tedious -- but potentially necessary -- grind. And while this last paragraph is something you might dismiss as kneejerk, I can say with near certainty people will hunt these white spirits like they're solid gold. I don't see anyone pursuing their black counterparts at their current level of strength.

To make this post concise, the two main issues I believe people have with this addition is:

1) The potential that it will break certain skills that aren't made to function outside of their cap.

and

2) The sheer amount of time that must be invested to obtain them.

I very much like the idea set forth by this talent, and hope it can be fleshed out and expanded in a way that makes it accessible but not mandatory. Being in tune with the spirits -- or possessed by one -- should be interesting character decisions, not a min-max consideration for everyone.

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Re: White Spirit Bonuses

Postby Egil » Mon Aug 08, 2016 10:24 pm

to tl;dr Kam:

White Spirits are so good that everyone is going to get the talent and hunt down the best White Spirits they can find, even if it doesn't fit their character, just to be competitive in PvP.

Nerf them/Add more ways to counter them, and then you'll be fine.
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Re: White Spirit Bonuses

Postby Neus » Mon Aug 08, 2016 10:48 pm

Egil wrote:to tl;dr Kam:

White Spirits are so good that everyone is going to get the talent and hunt down the best White Spirits they can find, even if it doesn't fit their character, just to be competitive in PvP.

Nerf them/Add more ways to counter them, and then you'll be fine.


And if this ever did become 'meta' everyone would die super fast due to Exorcism's big damage bonus. This isn't a free benefit because it comes with a huge weakness, vampires aside who have to deal with it all the time, and who could easily be brought in line with everyone else by making Bright Darkness only work if you're treated as Vampire race.

Kameron wrote:1. Are you going to forbid spirits from boosting outliers? Things like Snake Dancer and the DH Stances with Gradient blur are disproportionately powerful with a single rank over, because they were designed to never exceed the cap.


I might consider preventing it from boosting passive skills, since those are the ones that are usually an issue for this sort of thing.

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Re: White Spirit Bonuses

Postby Kameron8 » Mon Aug 08, 2016 10:59 pm

Neus wrote:and who could easily be brought in line with everyone else by making Bright Darkness only work if you're treated as Vampire race.


This is a good direction to take.

Neus wrote:I might consider preventing it from boosting passive skills, since those are the ones that are usually an issue for this sort of thing.

This is also good. Some things will still need to be accounted for, like Demon Hunter Stances, but it helps immensely.


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