Expanding DONG!

Retirement home for old beta fu topics from previous versions.
User avatar
Snake
Posted to Death
Posted to Death
Posts: 1803
Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2015 10:14 pm
Location: O.W.L.S Underground Motherbase - Main Office

Re: Expanding DONG!

Postby Snake » Thu Jun 16, 2016 6:18 pm

Erm... Ways to amplify it are pretty off-topic, excuse me. (That's why I never mentioned anything about RES, Bloody Palms, Hunting, Analyze Weakness or whatsoever.) Because the skill itself is doing >too much< damage for something that should be fairly simple (and counterplay-lacking). I mean, not even Ether Invitation, which is supposed to be a NUKE, is nuking anymore, so why the bloody hell some ice tiles should do more?

Anyway, I'm pretty down for making it DPS-ish, instead of NUKE. You get what I mean. All my votes to lower the damage, lower FP cost and increase the momentum. It should be a complementary offensive spell, not a main damage dealing source. (For people who can't understand, something you use after your nuke to finish off someone, like Sheath Sword with Hidden Cut.) I mean, just compare Expanding Ice's damage with Icicle Spear, a god damn hardcore crafted Ice spear that takes 2 rounds to prepare is pitiful compared to... eh... some chill in the legs?

Also, once a turn? No way. If the enemy's WEAK against Ice, the user should be rewarded for it. That's why I said 4M
Image
Image ~ Dev, 08/16/2016.

User avatar
Shujin
Social Poster
Social Poster
Posts: 380
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2014 8:48 pm

Re: Expanding DONG!

Postby Shujin » Thu Jun 16, 2016 8:00 pm

if it´s 4M the problem is, that you kinda lose the ability to fight Cobra.
Chimera style:Crane hop-Axe kick-Exapnd ice.<-Also needs ice tile set up

Given how rarely you even trigger a ice weakness, I would prefer to not lose a way to fight something that is literally everywhere.

User avatar
Lolzytripd
Posted to Death
Posted to Death
Posts: 1132
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 7:04 pm

Re: Expanding DONG!

Postby Lolzytripd » Thu Jun 16, 2016 9:15 pm

should things be balanced against cobra at the expense of literally stomping out everything else, if a verglas cannot beat cobra with expanding ice, maybe they should look at other options againt cobra (rapid kick)

User avatar
Spoops
Posted to Death
Posted to Death
Posts: 1786
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:25 am
Location: Somewhere

Re: Expanding DONG!

Postby Spoops » Thu Jun 16, 2016 9:16 pm

Making it 4m is definitely not the right thing to do, it conflicts with Chimera style that way.

User avatar
Lolzytripd
Posted to Death
Posted to Death
Posts: 1132
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 7:04 pm

Re: Expanding DONG!

Postby Lolzytripd » Thu Jun 16, 2016 10:42 pm

give it a max damage like board shaker

Kameron8
Posted to Death
Posted to Death
Posts: 675
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 12:59 am

Re: Expanding DONG!

Postby Kameron8 » Thu Jun 16, 2016 10:57 pm

Or just remove the excess 50% tiles from the damage calculation, like it was once upon a time before a bug fix. Lower the FP so it isn't one of the most expensive attacks in the game, and the damage will be reduced by a whole lot.

User avatar
MegaBlues
Posted to Death
Posted to Death
Posts: 766
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 7:13 pm

Re: Expanding DONG!

Postby MegaBlues » Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:33 am

Sort of seems like there's a fair bit of "I took X damage" without posting resistances, armor, and the like. It seems kind of disingenuous to call for a nerf so quickly without really delving into the issue and comparing how much damage this skill does against, say, a regular autohit with comparable defenses.

What's probably going on is because magic has been nerfed into the ground (and im still mad that my topic on it hasnt gotten much attention), people aren't nabbing any resistance to it. So when something that deals Magical Damage comes along, they get shredded and complain.

Oh, and not to mention that you actually have to get ice tiles out in the first place, and have your opponent not just run away from them. If a skill that requires setup is so much weaker than a skill that doesn't, -that's- poor balance.

Kameron8
Posted to Death
Posted to Death
Posts: 675
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 12:59 am

Re: Expanding DONG!

Postby Kameron8 » Fri Jun 17, 2016 5:05 am

Honestly, this wouldn't be an issue if Verglas skills retained Cel/Ski/Will scaling from their animal trees. Building straight mage and having a strong expanding ice is a bigger trade off than being a tanky duelist with crystal rose and expanding ice dealing equally as much damage.

User avatar
Rendar
Posted to Death
Posted to Death
Posts: 1678
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 7:39 pm
Location: Fantasy Land

Re: Expanding DONG!

Postby Rendar » Fri Jun 17, 2016 5:45 am

As an FYI Kameron, that would do literally nothing to my damage.

STR - 50
WIL - 50
SKIL- 50

Let me just give you a rundown of how much power my weapon actually has.

((50*0.65)+(50*0.6)+29)*1.5) = 137.25+5 (Fist expertise) = 142.25

110% ICE ATK & 110% weapon attack.

48 (roughly) scaled SKI.

52.8 + 156.475 = 209.275

This is the power I hit with on my initial hit (after that it's *1.12 for hunted). Which means that it's, roughly, 234.388 (or 234)

The after-hits, which are *all* affected by magical defense on armor, mind you, do about 1/4th of that each. So, you each one doing 58 damage per hit. This means that on my initial expanding ice, I'm doing (if I don't drop winters bite and lower resistances)

(209*(1-0.Mag Resist))
(X*(1-ICE RESIST))
(Y-MAG ARMOR)


For the initial hit, then for each one after that I dooo...

((52*1.12)*(1-0.MAG RESIST))
(X*(1-ICE RESIST))
(Y-MAG ARMOR)


What exactly does this mean? It means that having actual fucking resistance stacks really well with having magic defense armor. What does winter bites change to this? It makes it so that instead of the 2nd step,it's just removed. Ontop of that, it makes the first step different. Making it into...

((209+5)*(1-0.mag resist))
(X-MAG Armor)

and then...

(((52+5)*1.12)*(1-0.MAG RESIST))
(X-MAG ARMOR)


The people that I actually fought and dealt damage to with this technique were using evasion, or simply had no resistance stat whatsoever. What they fail to realize is that evasion applies after everything else. It's Damage Reduction which applies to the total damage after I deal it. 15% off, or even 30% off of the damage after your RESISTANCE and even MAG DEF from your armor... Isn't going to cut it down.

Let's just plug in some math here for.. lets say the elf that I smacked that was healing 600 HP per turn since I know her RES and her MAG DEF.

(((209+5)*1.12))*(1-0.11))
(213-11)
-----------
202*.85=171.7
171.7*.9=154.53

and then...

(((52+5)*1.12)*(1-0.11))
(56-11)
--------
45*.85(Evasion)= 38.25
38.25*.9(Spell Thief)= 34.425 (roughly, its near what she was taking)


Now, there are issues strewn throughout all of the math because fuck if I know where a ton of this stuff actually applies anymore. As you can see though, if you just... raise.. resistance.. about 10%.. it makes your magic defense armor (against multi hit low power spells!) sooooo much better.

So in short. Stop building evasion and expecting it to work really well against multi-hit low power spells that are affected by magic defense armor each hit.


Like really. If I just took hunted out of the equation and we just ran my damage against someone with 30 resistance and 10 magic armor, this damage would go to shit soooo fast.

I know other builds (looking at you Rogue and ghost) do more damage than this and has less FP cost and doesn't give me a 25% Wind Weakness to do it.



Oh right. In regards to OP.

[quote=Kunai]Expanding Ice:
4 Momentum, so it can't be spammed unless your enemy is Weak against it.
at Max Rank: 100% Scaled Ice ATK || 80% Scaled WPN ATK
Each extra tile will do 50% less damage, so the result might be like:[/quote]

If it's 4 momentum, it can't be actually used twice in a round, even if your opponent is weak to it.

7+1 - 8

4+5 (Repeat action cost) = 9

This makes this skill actually usable once per round, and if they resist it, it's your only action in the round (unless you use it 2nd).

So, no. Don't make it 4M because that just fucks literally everything about the skill up and will drop it to one of the highest FP costing skills in the game with 0 actual use because of it's shitty momentum costs.
Galeon Zviera's turn.
Critical Hit! Galeon Zviera attacks Jammer with Floating Red Letter and hits them!
Jammer takes 8420 Pierce damage.

Tiny Fawn Girl recovered 8550 HP.
Isabelline recovered 8550 HP.


Image

User avatar
Spoops
Posted to Death
Posted to Death
Posts: 1786
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:25 am
Location: Somewhere

Re: Expanding DONG!

Postby Spoops » Fri Jun 17, 2016 8:48 am

IF you remove the after hits(x takes 30/30/30/30 ice damage), it'd cut down on pretty much 50% of it's damage, which is completely fair, that'd be the most optimal route to go imo, I agree with Kameron's suggestion.


Return to “Beta Fu Archives”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest