Skill Cooldowns

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Spoops
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Skill Cooldowns

Postby Spoops » Fri Jun 17, 2016 1:33 pm

I realize it was just introduced, and it is only experimental, but I thought I'd show my immediate thoughts on the matter.

While good in theory for only some skills, it isn't very good in practice for all skills, cooldowns should only be placed on very powerful skills, (That one being Lunar Lunatism.)

Overall it doesn't make interactions with PvE or PvP very fun, I do think that some skills should keep cooldowns however, as it is a good way to limit some of the ways they were super strong, those ones being:
Lunar Lunatism
Graft
Malmelo
Pheonix
Meditate
Healing Discharge
Metalaegis
Medibot
Screamer (screaming tome)
Burn Up (Skyburn)


I shouldn't really need to explain the reasons as to why it just doesn't work outside of "It just doesn't" from just practicing, so if want to revert it at that, that's fine. But I wrote up a few reasons in a spoiler below.

Fluidity: Classes like Duelist and it's promos, Void Assassin, Verglas, Black knight and Demon Hunter are all classes that benefit from being able to flow their skills together in combos, this is extremely hard to achieve with the cooldowns, infact it's nigh impossible after your first set.

Skill worth: A skill can simpily just be an extension of your combo, something like sidecut, wazabane, hanging, Ryemei, Wind Slasher, Rabbit leap etc. etc. Since most skills now are only worth the SP at rank 5, this puts the amount of skills someone will possess at a very low number, repeat skills was never a problem I find.

Cookie Cutter strategies: You could wall out a hexer's damage almost entirely by staying out of their Menov's range and then waiting for them to try and poison you, once that is done you can cure that poison with anti-toxin or purify poison, and yet not get punished for doing so because now, one of their poisons is on cooldown, this would merely just adopt a counter-meta to every single class, rather than create moments of weakness.


Overall I think it's the right idea, but in it's current state it is just simply not fun to play with. I am interested to see how this goes.

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Re: Skill Cooldowns

Postby Rendar » Fri Jun 17, 2016 1:45 pm

Yeah. I'm not really in favor of

"X skill is OP"

"Let's give everything a 3 turn cooldown and call it fixed".


This was a poor way to fix the few skills that were actually broken.

Also this. Literally didn't even affect the problem skill in question whenever this was announced to be a thing.

Which was Lunar Lunatism.
Last edited by Rendar on Fri Jun 17, 2016 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Skill Cooldowns

Postby Spoops » Fri Jun 17, 2016 2:13 pm

Well, less rudely putting it, Lunar Lunatism's duration lasts for it's cooldown, but I only assume cause this is all experimental in the first place.

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Re: Skill Cooldowns

Postby Neus » Fri Jun 17, 2016 2:54 pm

The problem is not exclusive to Lunar Lunatism. This was not a system developed in any sense around the revelation that Lunar Lunatism might be a problem. If you read my post in the topic, I said this has been kicking around for a while now. Spamming the same autohit/spell up to twice per round is a problem that has existed well before Lunar Lunatism got changed, even with things like Repeat Action existing (to be honest, Tactician is the biggest culprit here. I wish I never added that trait). Have we established that this system is only related to Lunar Lunatism in the sense that I first mentioned it in the topic and that it would be affected by this system? Good.

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Re: Skill Cooldowns

Postby Spoops » Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:14 pm

Okay but that does not solve the issue of classes not being able to do what they are supposed to do here.

The issue of skills being spammed in the past is when they are way too good, however, that is not the case with the skills mentioned in my original post, As I had said, Duelists are not able to do what they are known for, neither is a reaver-stance specific demon hunter, mono-mages are gonna get walled out, ruining the whole shtick of people running spell-bladey mono-element builds.

You have to think about it from the perspective of the user here, is Wazabane worth 5SP when it only gives you a very, -very- meager amount of hit and crit? Is it worth 22FP? And is it now worth 3 rounds of not even being able to use it? No, I'd gladly spend 5SP on all the passives as I could use them more efficiently than Wazabane, but that is not the issue here, every skill has the cooldowns, I don't think its a system this game in specific could use, where it's more turn based than action-based.

But, I can only assume this much is evident and I am just stating things that are obvious, so I'll get to the point

Cooldowns are fine, like I said in my post they're a step in the right direction.

If they are shortened for the skills that need to be used the most, and longer cooldowns on the other skills would be great too.

For example, Couloir, Repel and Sidecut/Sillcut are all very essential duelist skills, and only need a 1 round cooldown (That way they can also be used next round)

But the stronger skills such as Power Gradiation, Lance de Lion could have their momentum costs dropped to 3, in exchange for 3 round cooldowns? It'd open up so many possibilities! This much would actually open Lance de Lion and Checkmate to be viable again if they were on larger cooldowns than other skills, and make it so that power gradiation combos into other duelist skills but is not too overbearing yeah?

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Re: Skill Cooldowns

Postby Neus » Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:30 pm

Yes, the system allows every skill to have its own cooldown time, it's not 3 or bust. Some of the skills have high momentum costs to offset their power, so you need some setup and give someone a chance to react/position accordingly. But I don't think there'd be a problem with some of them having lowered Momentum costs in exchange for having multi-turn cooldowns, especially when some of them do have high Momentum costs because of the fear of spamming it.

The current implementation is just experimental to see how the concept worked overall. It doesn't have any detailed number tweaking.

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Re: Skill Cooldowns

Postby Spoops » Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:44 pm

Then, that sounds like a fine idea to me, if it allows checkmate and lance-de-lion to have their place in some builds, I'd even like to add that most skills that are 4 or 5 momentum currently, should be placed at 3m with the cooldowns, I actually do like this.

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Re: Skill Cooldowns

Postby Neus » Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:33 pm

Feel free to list ideas then. I could see 1 round being the default, but what skills would be longer than that? Etc.

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Re: Skill Cooldowns

Postby Spoops » Fri Jun 17, 2016 5:07 pm

Neus wrote:Feel free to list ideas then. I could see 1 round being the default, but what skills would be longer than that? Etc.

Oh, very well then I will.

Graft -> 2 rounds

Mass -> 2 rounds

Lance de Lion -> 3 rounds

Power Gradiation -> 2 rounds

Shuukuchi -> 2 rounds

Charge -> 2 rounds

Checkmate -> 3 rounds

Malmelo - > 3 rounds

Sanctuary -> 3 rounds (Balanced both ways, the priest can wear spiked treads, and the attacker can shove them out in the cooldown period)

Healing Discharge -> 2 rounds

Pheonix -> 2 rounds

Medibot -> 3 rounds

Metalaegis -> 3 rounds(Both of these allow someone to safely kill off the bot without the engineer popping down another one instantaniously)


These are the skills that I'd suggest.
Last edited by Spoops on Fri Jun 17, 2016 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Skill Cooldowns

Postby Raigen.Convict » Fri Jun 17, 2016 5:14 pm

Not to be the negative nancy but, I don't see it as fair when youkai whom sometimes all they can do is use their skill to hit an EXTREMELY dodgy character gets a cooldown, so now they're sitting there helplessly, and if they try to hit the enemy, there's a good chance they have riposte which will almost definitely hit them for around 100-200 from experiments against people... I mean maybe certain youkai spells might be better having a cooldown, but not all of them... Possibly ones like Thunder Claw, Hunter Wind, Ruby Beam and Black Rose and Drown getting a 1 round cooldown. Since most summoners if not bonder, will summon about 3-4 at a time with the ability to have MUCH deeper focus pools now. Overall though i'm not in favor of this idea on EVERY spell/skill.
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