Great Reckoning Discussion

"VAs are too strong!" "Evokers are too weak!" "Nerf Kinu!"
A place for all your ideas and woes regarding game balance.
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Rendar
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Re: Great Reckoning Discussion

Post by Rendar » Tue Jun 07, 2016 10:01 am

So, from the looks of it Phoenix didn't get touched upon from the Lantern Bearer skills.

It's still WIL/2 + TOME POW + 14

Is this set to change any time in the near future?
Galeon Zviera's turn.
Critical Hit! Galeon Zviera attacks Jammer with Floating Red Letter and hits them!
Jammer takes 8420 Pierce damage.

Tiny Fawn Girl recovered 8550 HP.
Isabelline recovered 8550 HP.


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Maikito
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Re: Great Reckoning Discussion

Post by Maikito » Wed Jun 08, 2016 4:05 am

Imbue Strike Changes the damage type of the spear, since we have Elemental ATK, would it be too farfetched to hope for a future update where Elemental ATK actually affects the damage type the spear is converted to? It would seem more useful from a PvP and a PvE aspect, honestly.

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Re: Great Reckoning Discussion

Post by Slydria » Wed Jun 08, 2016 9:09 am

Long time no see. I'm not back yet but I couldn't help myself and decided to pop on a few times (in secret) on the test server to see the changes for myself and now that I've had a chance to gather my thoughts, I want to make some comments about gripes I have. (I've split it up in sections to make it a little less TL;DR.)


Stats:
Aptitude:
While I understand Aptitude exists to make rounded builds better, I feel Aptitude is so good that anyone who doesn't invest in it is shooting themselves in the foot. Just like how Style Blending (and arguably Lady Luck) were vital to previous builds, 40 Aptitude will be essential for new builds.

While I don't have any solid ideas to change this right now, I think we should consider alternatives to make rounded builds more viable. In addition, I think it would be worth testing 4 Stats per Level but without the bonus stats from Aptitude.


Strength and Willpower:
These stats are too weak now that alternative damage sources are readily available, I think they need a little boost to help them out.

+3 HP per point in Strength. (I would give Strength more but with plans to add equipment weight to other pieces, I figured it would get a boost in this roundabout way. This is also to make up for a nerf I'm suggesting for VIT.)

+1 Elemental ATK to all (or most) Elements per 2 Willpower. (To make Willpower more desirable for general spellcasters and to act as a 'counter' to Sanctity's Elemental Resistances.)

EDIT: Alternatively, it may be better to have Willpower dictate Elemental ATK for the most part but with certain Stats giving a more minor benefit rather than the bulk of it. (e.g. Willpower giving 1:1 Elemental ATK while other stats like STR giving 1:2 Fire ATK.)

In addition, I think most Tomes should be more Willpower reliant then the mostly even split they currently are. (I think it's strange that there are no 100% WIL Tomes despite there being a good amount of 100%+ STR weapons.)


Vitality:
I feel Vitality gives too much HP, especially now that it has a hand in Water Damage. I'd suggest trying it at 6 HP per point and see how that goes.


Guile:
I think Guile is too essential for Rogue characters, due to the vast majority of Daggers being Guile based. The issue with Guile being the primary scaling as opposed to Strength or Willpower is those two stats do not contribute much on their own.

Guile however contributes to Flank bonuses and more importantly Critical Damage which is something that Daggers already benefit greatly from.

I think if Daggers were a little more even in this matter instead of mostly GUI based, this would be alleviated.

Alternatively, I'd suggest halving the bonus Critical Damage from Guile (+1% per 2 Guile) and increasing the base Critical Damage on Weapons overall.


Critical vs Critical Evade:
Critical Hit greatly overpowers Critical Evade in the new system. I think tinkering with how much you get Critical Hit vs Critical Evade from stats is necessary.

New Skill Scaling:
I feel Weapon ATK is used too frequently in the recent changes and devalues stat diversity as you can simply focus on whatever stats are used for your equipped weapon in most cases.

For instance, Verglas' previous emphasis on STR/WIL/CEL for it's varying skill sets is now gone. While this makes them more useful for everyone, it also makes them less special I feel. As long as your weapon permits it, anyone can be good with a Rapid Kick or an Expanding Ice and I don't think it should be this way.

Another problem with the new scaling is that currently Base class skills are typically more powerful than Promoted Skills. I feel this is backwards and Base Skills should be weaker (but continue utilizing Weapon ATK for most of these skills so they can benefit a variety of characters). However, on the flipside, Promoted Skills being stronger but based more on the classes' ideal stats as opposed to simply whatever the weapon holds.

New Profiles:
I'll be frank, for the most part, I think the new profiles are a step backwards. While more stylized, they sacrifice much of the vast customization options of the previous profiles made possible thanks to HTML. This customization allowed for a lot of creative freedom and made profiles interesting to make and look at.


Profile Picture:
The image dimensions and size is somewhat limiting, while I know it was not too different in the old profile, we could get around these limitations by uploading our profile picture as a background image instead.

Another problem I have is the picture box being 'shifted off' the profile box. I think it would be better if it were kept within the bounds of the 'profile box' and made transparent instead of a bordered ?. Should we be able to upload a 'background image', this would allow us to once again bypass the previous restrictions and to more easily adapt our old profiles to the new profile system.


Music:
Currently the profile music you upload is set to automatically play upon opening it no matter what. I think this needs to be changed, whether that's dictated by the music option in settings (e.g. It being off would mean it would not play) or if it's off by default and instead the music button is pressed to play it in the first place.


Equipment Tab:
At first, I thought it would be which was simply another tab for 'describing' equipment... Allowing people to plainly view what we have equipped is invasive at best and a clear opportunity to metagame at worst, I can't really think of a way in which this would not be abused.


More Options:
If what I said previously wasn't clear enough, I cannot stress enough how much I want to be able to upload background images again.

Another one off the top of my head I'd like is being able to toggle the guild information. I think it would be good for whether you want to hide such things or... hiding that you're not even in one.

I think being able to move the profile window around would also be nice.

While yes, I know what I've said has been entirely critical, I don't think it's bad, in fact, I think the amount of effort put into all of this is insane (in the good way) but I have to get all of this off my chest because even though I'm not currently playing, I really want this to work out.
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Spoops
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Re: Great Reckoning Discussion

Post by Spoops » Wed Jun 08, 2016 3:12 pm

I could never hope to get my uncomfortable feelings with the beta server's changes across in better words than the post above from Slydria, please heavily consider everything written in it, as a lot of it is what I believe as well.

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Re: Great Reckoning Discussion

Post by Lolzytripd » Wed Jun 08, 2016 7:16 pm

yeah I agree with sly here on this topic

especially considering promotion class technique scaling

setting sun has had a legacy of being a willpower /spirit scaling fire kick.

now it just scales on strength.....


I mean sure I like elemental attack on some things but....all magic damage should have willpower somewhere in its damage formula.

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Re: Great Reckoning Discussion

Post by Soapy » Wed Jun 08, 2016 7:32 pm

I agree with Sly in that we both see the same problems, but we have vastly different solutions.

What should've been a (relatively) simple adjustment to stat gains and a few new stats instead almost completely removed diversity and individuality.

Weapon and elemental scaling being tied to arbitrary stats, and skills/spells being tied to weapon scaling does not make the game more diverse as some would be led to believe.

You are now completely limited to doing whatever your weapon scaling says you can do. The number of potential builds is only equal to the number of weapons in the game, and even for those with access to literally every item in the game (hi there) there aren't exactly a whole lot of options going around. This locks many people into having a choice between one or two weapons - that is, assuming their old build is even possible to adapt to the changes.

Yes, some gimmick builds (especially single element focused ones, such as my bard that can now kill most people before they get a turn) thrive with the new scaling, and some are nearly unchanged, but others are doomed to suck (especially mages, such as my Evoker Lich that would now have to build str and luc to -maybe- do as much damage as before... while also dropping from 80+ cel and res to maybe 10 tops), and there are those that simply need to scrap their build entirely due to the wonky scaling of the weapons they once relied on.

Instead of most people with the same class combination being largely similar (but with different equipment), most people with the same weapon are going to be near identical.

Given the amount of effort that went into this, I find it highly unlikely that there's going to be any serious reverts, so I already have one foot out the door.




Oh, and the new descriptions are like injecting garbage juice directly into my optic nerve.

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Re: Great Reckoning Discussion

Post by Sarah54321 » Wed Jun 08, 2016 10:05 pm

Really I'm mostly bummed out about the descriptions.
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Re: Great Reckoning Discussion

Post by MegaBlues » Wed Jun 08, 2016 10:59 pm

Sly really hit the nail on the head with most of this. I haven't touched the Beta because I'm a horrible person and don't want to deal with BYOND ads again, but I've seen and heard enough to have a few concerns. Stats and the like can be adjusted, but the descriptions bit really gets me.

The current style of description is a little plain, but it allows for a great deal of customization (Thank you Soapy). This new style is rather intrusive, and the fact that you can view someone's equipment is horrible. I actually searched for the time when you asked people how they would feel about this, and I couldn't find it, even though it was a nice trip down memory lane.

But I vaguely remember the community's response being overwhelmingly against giving people a metagame tool, especially with how much SL2 is being toted as a roleplaying game, and even more so as one with PvP as the main draw.

(but keep up the good work, we're rooting for you despite it all)

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Re: Great Reckoning Discussion

Post by Grandpa » Thu Jun 09, 2016 1:51 am

I mostly have been letting everyone else do the whole beta testing thing for me, seeing as it's not something I'm too skilled at (that being: testing in general), however from the bit that I did play and from everything else I've been hearing, I really think Sly is right on literally every topic. The main problems I saw personally were just aptitude and the new description system. Which isn't to say it couldn't work, it just needs a lot of tweaking.
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Re: Great Reckoning Discussion

Post by Neus » Thu Jun 09, 2016 11:01 am

If you haven't beta tested much, or at all, feel free not to comment.

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