The lightning hits for a fatal blow!

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A place for all your ideas and woes regarding game balance.
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Chaos
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Re: The lightning hits for a fatal blow!

Postby Chaos » Tue Oct 10, 2017 4:51 pm

Lolzytripd wrote:Rye is a tier 1 spell, it out performs Fir, Isendo, miu and vyd.

Autohits of any nature should not have the ability to critically hit for more damage than a basic attack that crits.

If every other tier 1 spell is that bad enough to make Rye look good, I would see about touching them up a little more, and not throwing Rye into the trash just because it has critical potential with an enchant.

As for Autohits, how about making Evasion negate skill ciritcals? That would put Swift Autohits on the same playing field as basic attacks.
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[12:53:15 AM] Chaos: don't hit dyst
[12:53:18 AM] Chaos: that's cruelty to animals
[12:53:20 AM] Chaos: you have to shoot it
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Re: The lightning hits for a fatal blow!

Postby Snake » Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:54 pm

Chaos wrote:As for Autohits, how about making Evasion negate skill criticals? That would put Swift Autohits on the same playing field as basic attacks.


THAT. +1.
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Re: The lightning hits for a fatal blow!

Postby Spoops » Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:08 pm

How about we do something simple and just nerf their damage because they do way too much damage, half GUI scaling on lightning criticals is chopping off 20-30% critical damage in severe cases.

Rye should not be exempt from this, it consistently crits with the right setups and heaven forbid if you pop attrait/veil off and/or be a redtail so that you can just double tap Rye for over 400-500 damage from basic 10fp cost spells.

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Re: The lightning hits for a fatal blow!

Postby Fern » Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:49 pm

I honestly like the part about Evasion negating skill criticals. I don't think lightning criticals use your weapon critical anyway, but I could be wrong on that.

They can be grossly powerful, but I really think the suggested evasion tweak would be a better route, if only because you'd still be able to hit tremendously hard with lightning criticals even with half GUI being used.
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Re: The lightning hits for a fatal blow!

Postby MegaBlues » Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:54 pm

Lightning criticals don't have weapon critical damage or chance added to them, nope.

Also, I'm not sure if I like the idea of dodge (especially luck) double-dipping on critical evade. I'd be for giving lightning criticals a base damage multiplier and then reducing the effect Guile has on them, but Lightning's damage is its parallel to Cinder Tiles making up for Strength being a lackluster stat, and defensive stat spellcasting. I'd rather just give other elements (especially wind and ice) more utility and strengthening them than nerfing more things into uselessness.

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Re: The lightning hits for a fatal blow!

Postby Spoops » Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:15 pm

Fern wrote:I honestly like the part about Evasion negating skill criticals. I don't think lightning criticals use your weapon critical anyway, but I could be wrong on that.

They can be grossly powerful, but I really think the suggested evasion tweak would be a better route, if only because you'd still be able to hit tremendously hard with lightning criticals even with half GUI being used.


The issue here is that SKI and LUC are basically required for lightning critical builds to work, and Evasion is not foolproof, it won't always trigger vs people who already stack as much hit as possible, telling people that you'll need to build for Evasion to build against something that simply put does way too much damage even by basic hit standards is just not the way to tackle this.

Lightning criticals do absurd amounts of damage, due to how much higher than a basic attack they do scale.

MegaBlues wrote:Lightning criticals don't have weapon critical damage or chance added to them, nope.

Also, I'm not sure if I like the idea of dodge (especially luck) double-dipping on critical evade. I'd be for giving lightning criticals a base damage multiplier and then reducing the effect Guile has on them, but Lightning's damage is its parallel to Cinder Tiles making up for Strength being a lackluster stat, and defensive stat spellcasting. I'd rather just give other elements (especially wind and ice) more utility and strengthening them than nerfing more things into uselessness.


Thats the thing, lightning criticals already have a base multiplier, they have 10(base) + 15 from Talents, leading up to a base of 125% as I stated in the beginning post, add your GUI on top of this and you have up to 1.75x to 1.85x damage on lightning criticals assuming you're built for this and spec into high GUI, on spells and skills that scale very well, crescent rook/crystal rose/rye/ryemei/overload etc. these skills very very quickly become problematic.


Half GUI is just the best way to go here in my honest opinion, if I could choose I'd opt in to remove lightning criticals entirely, no enchant should strictly be better than the other enchants simply because it gives you a straight up multiplier on each skill used.

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Re: The lightning hits for a fatal blow!

Postby Slydria » Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:34 pm

I'd prefer a straight up reduction to Critical Damage on lightning criticals to the Evasion negating critical idea. I don't think the proposal is meaningful considering people who build for critical have accuracy anyway.

As a sidenote, I agree with Blues that there is a problem in that Fire and Lightning are just far better augment choices than the rest.
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Re: The lightning hits for a fatal blow!

Postby Rendar » Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:09 am

I personally think nerfing the baseline crit damage for lightning would be perfectly well, as opposed to just "evasion gets rid of the crit chance".. since the critters build for crit, which means they build for hit too if they ain't dumb.

One of the main issues is... enchanting with anything but fire or lighting just isn't worth it. That's an entire discussion for a later date, but earth giving RANK*2 more damage on each hit compared to "I SPEW FIRES FROM THE PITS OF HELL ITSELF THAT DEALS 50 DAMAGE EVERY TIME YOU STEP ON IT. NOW WATCH AS I BLAST YOU AROUND FOR EZ DAMAGE" doesn't.. really compare.
Galeon Zviera's turn.
Critical Hit! Galeon Zviera attacks Jammer with Floating Red Letter and hits them!
Jammer takes 8420 Pierce damage.

Tiny Fawn Girl recovered 8550 HP.
Isabelline recovered 8550 HP.


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Re: The lightning hits for a fatal blow!

Postby Fern » Wed Oct 11, 2017 7:00 am

Fair point. I just realized I barely see lightning crits happen on people who stack absurd evade anyway - but that's probably because they happen to stack up good critical evade while building dodge.

The original suggestion sounds okay-ish to me. Part of the reason I'm hesitant on it is that it seems like the only real offenders in my opinion are Swift Crystal Rose and Swift Crescent Rook. I have not seen, say, a Swift Roundtrip or even a Swift Chaser in ages, to give a few examples.

I'd throw Ryemei in, but I rarely see that go past 400 damage on critical, with Charge Mind up. Not versus Prinny, but a player character. Of course this is just my personal experience with it.

I think that unless Crystal Rose and maybe Crescent Rook's scalings are tweaked, even with half GUI, it'll pack too much power. Specially when everyone still runs Bloody Palms with a katana, at this point.

tl;dr i think the half gui suggestion will only work if the biggest offenders (rose and rook) are also toned down

alternatively nerf said offenders and make it so you only get the full GUI bonus with redgull (not the badge)
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Re: The lightning hits for a fatal blow!

Postby Snake » Wed Oct 11, 2017 7:24 am

100% Critical Damage bonus with Redgull only is what I feel like is the best way to go, really. Lightning Badge and Conduiz are both the tumors here, and the critical damage they do is but the effects of they existing, it needs to be 50%, instead of 100%, as I've stated before.

And, Evasion denying lightning critical hits is just fair, ALONG with what's proposed above. If you build SKI to punch through Evasion, you'll not have points to invest in WIL/GUI/STR without slowly becoming obsolete in other areas. It's just how balance works.
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