Rebound and Vampires

"VAs are too strong!" "Evokers are too weak!" "Nerf Kinu!"
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Fern
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Rebound and Vampires

Postby Fern » Sun Dec 24, 2017 3:11 am

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Can this work as a full heal for Vampires, just like Vampiric weapons do? That was with at least 40-ish RES. Claret Call and what not seems to be related to bloodshed, rather than potions/Mercalan healing. The way it currently works makes it so Vampires have no big reason to use the skill Rebound, beyond keeping it in their pool for a small amount of RES.
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Re: Rebound and Vampires

Postby Spoops » Sun Dec 24, 2017 5:35 am

I don't think its that good of an idea, mostly due to rebound actually being able to heal a large amount of HP if done right, Vampiric weapons don't restore as much HP as that.

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Re: Rebound and Vampires

Postby Chaos » Sun Dec 24, 2017 3:31 pm

There is a fix to this: Don't be a Vampire.

Like Spoops noted, Rebound (even on just one enemy) has far more healing than any Vampiric weapon could ever hope to match, and can potentially match Graft if enough enemies are marked, with only one stat required as opposed to the 2~3 that Graft demands.

It's just too much for Vampires to get a pass on, and frankly, pumping in one SP for a +1~+10 RES boost is still a good reason to throw in Rebound.
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Re: Rebound and Vampires

Postby Snake » Sun Dec 24, 2017 4:00 pm

The problem with Vampires is related to their actual lack of ability to benefit with heals. The buff/nerf should be aimed at Stillness, Darkness; and indirectly will benefit those minor skills. I'd love the idea of 'Only Mercalan magic has reduced effects/no effect' on Vampires, for a kickstarter. 'All heals' is pretty exaggerated.

Second and back on topic, uh... Rebound is not that good or dependable, mostly due to 'Unmarked' for 2 rounds at every target you hit. Personally, I never saw it going beyond 50-55 HP per enemy.

So don't even compare that to Graft's absurdity of 150-200 per round for only holding SWA alone on a tome, versus something that only heals 200 HP if you're both lucky to have Claret Call on everyone in a PvP situation, have invested in RES till it goes 50 Scaled, and with a cooldown that leaves 90% of your class's arsenal unusable.

That was like comparing an elephant to an ant. Oof. And here I was thinking Aid from Monk needed a buff to be worth waiting 3 rounds.
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Re: Rebound and Vampires

Postby Ranylyn » Sun Dec 24, 2017 5:18 pm

1v1, Rebound is atrocious. It only really shines against multiple opponents, the kind of thing you only see in Crazy dungeons or against Summoners in Team PVP.

One of my characters is a Ghost/Priest. They have 44 Resistance, which gets pushed higher in battle thanks to Rising Game and Sanctuary. At critical HP with a Sanctuary up, they can heal 80-ish per rebound tick. It takes 3 enemies to outpace Graft (91 SWA before Rising Game with a Str/Fai staff, and 66 Light Attack. Rising Game also pushes the Str further, although it's only 30% Str scaling, so Graft doesn't get much better.)

Now factor in that Rebound makes the opponents Unmarkable for two turns, lowering your damage output and locking you out of some of your other options, whereas most other heals have no such drawbacks. (I think the only other heal with an effect like this is Ranger's Cherry Blossom Annorum, which, due to Annorum's cooldown, locks you out of using augmented skills for 2 turns, but not preventing the skill from being used at all. Also, that heal takes 9M to set up for a 350 HP party-wide heal, as opposed to Rebound's taking 6m to heal one character for closer to 60 unless they stack Res.)

I'd actually be okay making rebound better for Vampires, considering. If your vampire is a closer range fighter, you'd probably rather Silvermists and Banquet it back, anyway! The main benefit to this would be roleplay; not using Silvermists so soon, so as to not give yourself away.
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Re: Rebound and Vampires

Postby Neus » Sun Dec 24, 2017 6:15 pm

This is just one of the downsides of playing a vampire. Changing it for a vaguely-maybe lore reason when it could have a big impact on their power level doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

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Re: Rebound and Vampires

Postby Chaos » Mon Dec 25, 2017 5:22 pm

Snake wrote:The problem with Vampires is related to their actual lack of ability to benefit with heals. The buff/nerf should be aimed at Stillness, Darkness; and indirectly will benefit those minor skills. I'd love the idea of 'Only Mercalan magic has reduced effects/no effect' on Vampires, for a kickstarter. 'All heals' is pretty exaggerated.

Second and back on topic, uh... Rebound is not that good or dependable, mostly due to 'Unmarked' for 2 rounds at every target you hit. Personally, I never saw it going beyond 50-55 HP per enemy.

So don't even compare that to Graft's absurdity of 150-200 per round for only holding SWA alone on a tome, versus something that only heals 200 HP if you're both lucky to have Claret Call on everyone in a PvP situation, have invested in RES till it goes 50 Scaled, and with a cooldown that leaves 90% of your class's arsenal unusable.

That was like comparing an elephant to an ant. Oof. And here I was thinking Aid from Monk needed a buff to be worth waiting 3 rounds.

....I'm sorry, did you forget that PR-Hi Potions, Gentle Garden, Cherry Blossom, First Aid, Meditate, Spirit Jar and Aid exist? On top of the mountain of benefits that Vampires already get, and a now-limited Holy enchant? An all-encompassing heal penalty is necessary to keep Vampires in check, and limiting it to just Mercalan heals will negate that weakness.

Let me clarify: Given enough marked enemies, Rebound can heal the Vampire enough to match a single cast of Graft, if not exceed it. It also does not require WIL/FAI (and any other stat that the casting tool requires for scaling; not everyone jumps over to Chorus), instead relying on RES, which directly impacts magic damage, and doesn't demand as much of a build-around as WIL/FAI does. But ultimately, it does not matter if it can't be used once every turn like Graft does, because it's not a competition between Rebound and Graft. It's how much of an impact Rebound can and will make and if it's too much for Vampires to utilize.

If Rebound vastly outheals Vampiric, and can reach numbers that Graft would spit out (which is ridiculously easy to achieve in PvE), then Vampires have no business getting Rebound's full heal. Simple as that.
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[12:53:15 AM] Chaos: don't hit dyst
[12:53:18 AM] Chaos: that's cruelty to animals
[12:53:20 AM] Chaos: you have to shoot it
[12:53:20 AM] Dystopia: ye

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Re: Rebound and Vampires

Postby Ranylyn » Mon Dec 25, 2017 7:56 pm

Let's go over these one at a time, shall we? (I won't even touch the whole "lol rebound >>> graft" nonsense)

- Pr-Hi Potions: I like how you put this first because it's the main one you mentioned that has a strong reason for even being mentioned, therefore making your list look stronger. Regardless of counterpoints I offer (Such as potion sickness actually blocking Sal Volatile - and yes, I've seen this happen when people weren't paying attention) Pr-Hi Potions are powerful and usable by anyone regardless of class or race (although they suck for Vampires,) and there are dedicated players who are constantly gathering the ingredients, making them, and selling them to higher level players who can afford 500 per potion, making them a staple among the level 60 scene.

- Gentle Garden: It costs 6M to set up (Unless you just happen to be standing near a flower already) and has a 3 turn cooldown. The heal CAN be decently potent (I think it can go as high as 230 if used on a level 60 at max rank) but if you compare it to Graft being usable more frequently and hitting wider areas with Mass, without the nature tile restriction... yeah, it's actually pretty bad. You're better just using Cherry Blossom, unless you're some kind of evasive, low HP glass cannon who almost never takes much damage but got hit, and needs a quicker heal.

- Cherry Blossom: 9M (10M if trying to one-turn it with Duelist/Ranger, Boxer/Ranger, or Dullahan) setup with a 3 turn cooldown for a party-wide heal of 350. This has it's uses, but mainly in teams. Problem is, much like Malmelo, it immediately ousts any vampire in the team ("Oh, that one didn't heal for as much, vamp confirmed") and enables rampant metagaming to counter them. I've seen people ICly hide their vampirism, have people OOCly find out accidentally, and ICly come after them later when they'd done nothing to expose themselves. It'd be great if this stopped being a thing.

Field Medic: It's a medical kit. Bandages and stitches and such. This should not help a vampire WHY? I can understand magics and potions because their bodies work differently, but manually patching a body up not working is just stupid. Not to mention the heal sucks without Tactics rank, and if someone is hurt bad enough to need it, the tactics rank is probably ruined anyways. I'm not saying it's impossible to make good use of (It's not, I've seen it used to great effect) but those are fringe scenarios.

Meditate: Between the 6+M to use and the cooldown, it's actually really weak when you consider how many people try to build for 1000+ HP. 2x Scaled Skill +25 = 125 if you have 50 scaled skill, which is quite a lot (the skill, not the heal.) Even if you go first and Urazawa it for the the 25% damage reduction, the heal will likely not even cover the damage you take that turn. Don't even get me started on how back attacks delay the heal for a turn and likely prevent it from going off at all in a decent party, preventing it from being a good "I'll top myself off at the start of a fight" button. And that's for non Vampires. Vampires have one singular use for it: Unlocking Monk.

Spirit Jar: I'm pretty sure these were nerfed and I haven't used one since the nerf (Heck, I haven't even SEEN one since the Nerf; do they even still drop?) so I can't comment on the balance, but... come on, Spiriteater, Banquet and Essence, is there a lore reason why this doesn't work? Just seems rational to me. If these aren't overbearing anymore, I don't see the problem.

Aid: Much like Meditate, the fact that it's based on a scaled stat and not SWA or static higher numbers makes it quite weak. Don't even get me started on that cooldown.



Basically, if your vampire is a melee fighter, even if these healing options weren't reduced, you're basically better off popping a SIlvermists and just Banqueting it right back, with how weak some of the heals are, the lengthy cooldowns, or the setup required for them.

Heck, I can even understand reducing magical/natural/potion heals simply since Vampire bodies work differently, but skills like Field Medic? Why not give an option or two for ways to heal onesself that won't expose the vampirism? I get it. Vampires have some powerful racials, but when you factor in the softcap and stat scaling, they bonus stats are not AS good as you might think, and Lunar Lunatism's been hit with nerfs to the point that when I do play a Vampire, I actually never see the low levels of Charm and Hesitation amount to anything despite 50 scaled San.
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Re: Rebound and Vampires

Postby Snake » Mon Dec 25, 2017 9:20 pm

I'd rather we get Sanguine Crest deleted or utterly nerfed then, if this is the biggest excuse that Vampires are pretty much unplayable in any roles other than squishy Void Assassin who screams like a girl at the sight of a Holy weapon.

Either that or make Stillness, Darkness's healing reduction scale up to your current Essence percentage. (Minimum = 0%/Maximum = 100%.)
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Re: Rebound and Vampires

Postby Ranylyn » Mon Dec 25, 2017 9:41 pm

I remember in the past, the idea was floating around of making the healing reduction based on Scaled San, allowing Low San vampires to be viable for choosing to be "less vampy." Which of course reduces the effects of the racials, but also reduces the downsides. Kind of like the Corrupted, in reverse. (LIke how Oracles get more accurate at range but less dodgy with San.)
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