Justified Super EXP

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Spoops
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Re: Justified Super EXP

Postby Spoops » Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:10 am

How about we just leave it as is? The firespitter grind is only sped up by the fact that it has firebloods to complete a 150k exp quest with, otherwise its about the same speed as training day without a time window.


Also I agree fully that a challenge shouldn't give ludicrous amounts of exp, considering the recommended level says its 60+.

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Re: Justified Super EXP

Postby Trexmaster » Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:23 am

Not to mention the tower fights have the death penalty, if you're comparing it to training day.

They aren't much good for anything aside from EXP and the catalysts, I'd say they're perfectly fine right now.

I have stressed in the past to offer something like Kunai suggested (mostly bumping Chaos' idea) of harder monsters that provided more exp, to reward people who want to grind not by just spam killing as many mobs as possible.

I haven't grinded much in ages though, but as far as I can tell BDPs haven't much changed aside from full-clears being made much easier to keep track of and perform with the QoL changes. Maybe someday we'll see more interesting bosses thrown into those, too.

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Re: Justified Super EXP

Postby Neus » Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:47 am

If it's better than doing BDPs then I definitely think they should be limited in some fashion. The main appeal of the tower shouldn't be the EXP.

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Re: Justified Super EXP

Postby Chaos » Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:27 am

Neus wrote:If it's better than doing BDPs then I definitely think they should be limited in some fashion. The main appeal of the tower shouldn't be the EXP.

....Wasn't the Firespitter challenge's grind power brought up in a much earlier Query topic?

Regardless, EXP is not the main appeal of the tower so far, just one 1st floor challenge, due to builds being able to spam Rebia in order to easily clear the fight. I'd argue that while putting Divine/Vorpal catalysts in the chests are a bit tempting, they're ultimately just a quicker way to get items that cost Legend Inks, considering that a chunk of the challenges (mainly the first floor) aren't at all difficult. Even if the Firespitter challenge was adjusted to prevent the grind power, the tower still serves as a bypass to some grinds.

A character-specific, but long-term reward (i.e. clearing it once an OOC day over a long period of time grants something like +1 Upgrade Limit or +1 Softcap to one stat) would have much stronger appeal, but that might require beefing some of the challenges up a bit.
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Re: Justified Super EXP

Postby Trexmaster » Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:34 am

The fact the first tower's fight was used for grinding was brought up awhile back, yes. http://www.neus-projects.net/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5399

The reason the tower beats out most BDPs is the fact it's a predictable, on-demand fight. It cuts out the middleman of finding the mobs and how many/where they'll be/how they'll be positioned in the fight. Then it proceeds to hand out EXP that's on par with or straight up beats the amounts any BDP fight can give with far less effort using a build specifically designed to clear it.

And yes, as Chaos stated, it's just the one fight, but it eclipses the others in its usage by far.

Something like Chaos said, a character specific bonus for clearing the tower might encourage people to run it more often for the actual fights rather than only to grind the one fight that's worth doing if you're not interested in catalysts. Maybe a bonus for clearing both floors in the same IG day? (before they reset).

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Re: Justified Super EXP

Postby Sawrock » Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:17 pm

Please don't make clearing the tower give character-specific rewards. It just makes some builds harder to polish up (as in, builds that can't easily clear the tower compared to a more PvE build will have a disadvantage).

I'd think something along the lines of bonus EXP for 24 hours or something that stacks with EVERYTHING, EVEN ITSELF! THE GODS WILL SHAKE IN FEAR AS WE GO FROM LEVEL 60 TO LEVEL 60! Ahem.

...Anyway, the tower being used for grinding only highlights a different problem with the game: it's boring. I personally have a lot of fun with the PvP aspect of the game, and even though roleplay can be stale, once in a while I'll log on a old character or get inspired to make a new one and RP on them for a week or so. To clarify what I mean by boring, however:

People are more interested in joining up with a water mage, AFKing, tabbing into the game, pressing End Turn, and then tabbing out, than actually playing the game.

It's a game; stating "grinding is boring because grinding is grinding"... means that you aren't trying to make the game a game. My apologies for going off-topic, in any case.
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Re: Justified Super EXP

Postby MegaBlues » Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:55 pm

I was thinking of how to word what Saw said, but he put it pretty well.

Grinding is not fun. Killing enemies which range from faceroll to tedious for hours on end is a chore, especially for the people who have been playing for years.

I don't know if anyone would even object if EXP was removed all together and people could make new characters and builds at will, because that's where the fun of the game is. Making new characters and experimentation.

And no, making fights harder won't fix the base issue, because at the end of the day, PvE is a means to an end, and making it even more of a slog will only encourage behavior such as people paying to be leveled.

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Re: Justified Super EXP

Postby Neus » Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:26 pm

Sawrock wrote:Please don't make clearing the tower give character-specific rewards. It just makes some builds harder to polish up (as in, builds that can't easily clear the tower compared to a more PvE build will have a disadvantage).

I'd think something along the lines of bonus EXP for 24 hours or something that stacks with EVERYTHING, EVEN ITSELF! THE GODS WILL SHAKE IN FEAR AS WE GO FROM LEVEL 60 TO LEVEL 60! Ahem.

...Anyway, the tower being used for grinding only highlights a different problem with the game: it's boring. I personally have a lot of fun with the PvP aspect of the game, and even though roleplay can be stale, once in a while I'll log on a old character or get inspired to make a new one and RP on them for a week or so. To clarify what I mean by boring, however:

People are more interested in joining up with a water mage, AFKing, tabbing into the game, pressing End Turn, and then tabbing out, than actually playing the game.

It's a game; stating "grinding is boring because grinding is grinding"... means that you aren't trying to make the game a game. My apologies for going off-topic, in any case.


First of all, saying the game 'isn't fun' is not constructive at all. What about it 'isn't fun'? You don't really go into detail. Secondly, speaking from the perspective of a player who has made dozens and dozens of alts, I think your opinion is going to be a little skewed. If all you want to do is make alts for PvP, then obviously you're going to want to the most efficient method with the least amount of effort involved (or like Blues said, you just want the game to change to suit your needs). This is a very unrealistic and unfair expectation, and I don't think everyone else who feels differently (including me, the developer, and my intentions) should have to give in for it.

And I'm not stating that 'grinding is boring because grinding is grinding'. I've always made efforts to try and improve the game's fun factor when requested. I do feel, however, that progression should be gradual and not tailored towards people who just want instant gratification in an RPG of all things. This is especially true for pockets of rewards that get abused by people AFKing (against level 80 enemies, even). So I'm going to be making adjustments that end that sort of non-playing. I am also interested in making adjustments that will improve the gameplay experience for actual, normal intended play, IE dungeon diving, or roleplaying/side-activities.

I think if you just want to PvP and try out different builds, that maybe there might be a way to have some sort of way to do that in game, without destroying the very fabric of the game's progression. For now I'd rather have the conversation shift towards what and why you find boring, and what would make it more fun and interesting for you.

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Re: Justified Super EXP

Postby MegaBlues » Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:59 pm

I think that the first step to making leveling more interactive is to smooth out the exp curve at higher levels, then make different levels of challenge for different styles of play. Easier, simpler dungeons for newer/lone players who don't have a perfect build or equipment setup, then more intensive dungeons for groups and those who have a more polished build. I would also review monsters, because due to mixed dungeons, avoiding certain monster types is impossible, and those monsters can be fatal to certain builds, if not all of them (firewings, corrupters).

The tower is used because it's a predictable fight with similar enemy types and doesn't require navigating a dungeon which may hurt your eyes or requires playing a spot-the-difference game to proceed. There also isn't a need to search out a dungeon in your level range, and healing is readily available.

(Also I apologize if my tone was a bit confrontational, I can imagine balancing enjoyment for newer and older players is difficult)

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Re: Justified Super EXP

Postby Snake » Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:00 pm

Legend Inks so we can complete that book to satisfy our OCDs for completion, and resetting statuses to try another build to fit their characters. That's all the end-game people want, and why we develop so many utensils to reach the LV60 as fast as possible even at the cost of trying to abuse as much and quietly on the new additions as they can, because hey, we already are 60 since 5 years ago, and over and over. I personally would like newer ways to get to 60. Not exactly 'easier and comfortable', but just something to break free from the repetitive chore it is to clear whole dungeons.

But the whole This is what Legend Extending does, and what we want the most, for no effort, it seems. If only the LV60 people had a better way to get Legend Inks. This makes me recall something we have but is not quite 'enough'. Black Blood quests that provide Legend Inks by defeating a specific amount of enemies of a race, or by doing something in specific. (Hell, giving a reason to kill Black Beasts was fun enough. BBs are the most comfortable enemies you can go against, because they actually bring RP, for being so much of a common issue in SL2, compared to monsters.)

I wish they could like, reset every IC month so you can do them again. And at the same time, more. There are more monster types, and even bosses we could use for those.

It's waaaaaaaay better to get Legend Inks by slashing and styling with your LV60 Demon Hunter in a horde of enemies that actually are challenging, than going on the tiring "LV1 to LV45, -wheeze-, LV45 to LV60, rise repeat redo respec fern pls grind mi qq", that we've been for like, 4-5 years now? With a quest on your PDA it helps soothe the pain, only because you know you're killing monsters for more than just EXP and LV60, but to actually achieve something.
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