An issue with mages

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Spoops
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An issue with mages

Post by Spoops » Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:58 pm

An issue thats been present lately is the rise of mages being pretty dominant lately, but I don't think this is an issue with Mage's balance itself, but rather the lack of anti magic tools in the game other than silence..

Heron feather has solved a lot of issues with silence, and I personally think that any mage SHOULD be able to fight against silence, that said I think that anti mage tools need to be put back into circulation, mostly in forms of mitigating their damage, especially the bursty kinds really.

Here are a few suggestions I can add:
-Buffing Voidveil, I think that now that its a main class requirement, this can be bumped back to 30% damage reduction vs magic, Evasion never was the issue here.

-Invocation's "Words of Power" sub-talent should be nerfed to reducing the chance an invocation breaks by 50% at max rank instead of 100%, this would give more windows of opportunity to people who want to fight against a vydel being invoked across the map, and give purpose to Priest's Devocation again.

-Charge Mind should be given a 3-5 round cooldown, it lasts 5 rounds with maxed out brainstorm so if someone doesn't approach an evoker with CM up for that long, the Evoker can just reapply it, its like the old wraithguard (but costs 6m), where in that there's no window of opportunity to approach an evoker who can kite and control the map.

-In Tandemn with this, I think that HSDW should be a main class skill.
Those are just the skill changes, I can add a couple more things I think should be introduced into the game as well.
-Maybe a Torso Piece item that reduces the effectiveness of AoE damage on yourself by 15-20%

-A shoe slot item that reduces magic damage taken by 10%, similar to Ogata Waraji it should have an armor requirement like unarmored.

Also I apologize for the long post, this'll be my last balance topic for a while.

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Re: An issue with mages

Post by K Peculier » Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:09 pm

One thing I can definitely agree on is the Invocation talent being a talent that is a literal no-brainer to max if you're someone who uses invocations. It completely eliminates the risk of getting smacked for a good amount of damage canceling the invocation so you can focus on stats or the infamous heron feather to eliminate other weaknesses that you would normally have as a mage.

Voidveil could also use some definite love when it became main-class only, a welcome change.

Charge Mind although costing 6m lasts a good long while as well as being able to use it with non-invocations, making it a rather versatile skill, having it have an actual cooldown would make the evoker have to tactically think on when its a good time to use the skill rather than it being a no-brainer 1 round move.

HSDW. No cooldown, its a skill, applies to hexer invocations as well and is only 3m. Whats not to love as having this skill in your sub-class? Again, adding more depth and strategy to when to use a powerful skill is a good thing.

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More items that encourage more different playstyles is always welcome. I think the last item batch update really shaked things up for the better.
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Re: An issue with mages

Post by Fern » Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:14 pm

I personally don't think tackling down Evoker is the way to go, mostly because from what I've seen, the sudden influx of mages have been Hexers. They've appeared to the point people expect to fight one every time. They usually have no issue building super tank, proceeding to gather large amounts of infliction, and then Menov's Fang + Etacof you to death. Normally we'd think people could just run away from the Menov's Fang, but Hexers usually have a way to catch up easily, through either Blink or some kind of movement boost from their other class.

That said, I do agree with Words of Power making Devocation lose its appeal. I'd be up for lowering its effects at max rank, as well as making Voidveil's reduction higher - not many people like using Void Assasin anymore. The reasons are because:

1. Dagger damage is relatively low compared to anyone two-handing, and running damage stacking (buffs that raise your damage by percent).
2. Voidveil is main class, and is essential to almost all of Void Assasin's arsenal, forcing people to main this class if they want to get a good use out of it at all.
3. Cutthroat requires an infliction check, when most of the aforementioned mages have loads and loads of status resist. There's also the part where said mages can just sit against the map border to protect their back, even after the Void Assasin manages to get Veil Off.

Otherwise, I think the biggest problem here is Hexer's potential. It's not overused because it's fun; it's because it's incredibly strong.

Dev had suggested an idea about making Hexer more interactive/fun rather than meta, if memory serves correctly, and I'd totally be up for that myself.

The reason I'm against a Charge Mind cooldown is because when people actually stack resists and run RES, they're basically shutting down an Evoker by dropping their damage to about 130-ish (with Charge Mind) and forcing them to rely on invocations. That they seldom get to achieve, assuming their foe has a silence that is not Absolute Fear (such as Rank 5 Black Bubble, Drown, Rank 5 Rebia, etc.)

I'd like more items that encourage different playstyles as well, however.

To note, people actually prefer running Hexer over Evoker, 7 times out of 10. The only times I've seen people prefer Evoker over it, have been when they're making either:

1. Lightning mage
2. Boxer/Evoker with Vydel
3. Kensei/Evoker with Tarnada

TL;DR - the core problem does not involve Evoker that much. It's Hexer, and Void Assasin's low potential.

EDIT: I also feel like I should point out, people usually Steal/Pressure Fletch/Null Shell the Charge Mind anyway.
Last edited by Fern on Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: An issue with mages

Post by Snake » Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:27 pm

Fair points were made in this thread's OP, I reckon. Magic was always a type of damage that I blantly told 'It's impossible to tank, aside Evoker being super, if not hyper effective now being compared to other classes. You can't stop your enemy from becoming a Death Knight. An Enma's Summons, Vydel or Isenshi can wipe out whole teams of tanks by round 2 with technically no counterplay anymore.
We previously had Absolute Fear on Kensei, and Cutthroat on Void Assassin to halt and delay them further, or force them to sacrifice some of their HP for a Screamer use. Now? They're unstoppable thanks to that blasted feather combined with the invocation talent.

I agree with the Words of Power being nerfed to 50%. It won't be a big deal on classes that need it anyway, such as Priest. Their Devocation will have use again if this is implemented. My only worry lies on non-Mage spells, such as Papilion's Aposemagika or Shine Knighting. But this can be addressed by another separate talent, I think.

I agree with a cooldown on Charge Mind, but it shouldn't be so extensive. Remember it actually uses an extra 3 skill points to prolong it to 5 rounds, soooo... 3 rounds at most will give enough of a gap for an enemy to attack them back. I find 5 rounds a tad exaggerated for a skill that uses up an entire round to wind up.

HSDW, yes, should be Main Class only. No exceptions. It saves too much momentum, it protects the Evoker from the invocation break risk, it protects the Evoker from silence infliction to block their spells.

Pronounced Anti-Magic classes, such as Ghost and Void Assassin, should be changed to make their unique abilities or passives to survive magic be more noticeable in actual combat, not just fluff. Maybe something around making Ghost's Rebound grant a bonus of +2/+3 RES for Rising Game, and double it if Ghost is your main class, so they can really get back that 'anti-magic' feel when they're going low on HP they had on Pre-GR. And of course, Voidveil backhanding either 30% of magic damage, or (Voidveil LV)% if we're going extremes here.

I don't quite care on the items part and find it a waste of time/effort for now. Adjusting the anti-magic classes will be enough, since people can just pick them at any time they want to fight a magic user, but the 'solution' is that it doesn't comfort all playstyles. *shrug* Items would probably just overbuff them in the end of the equation, or just make pretty much everyone able to fight magic at a swap of items.
Last edited by Snake on Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: An issue with mages

Post by Spoops » Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:39 pm

Fern wrote:I personally don't think tackling down Evoker is the way to go, mostly because from what I've seen, the sudden influx of mages have been Hexers. They've appeared to the point people expect to fight one every time. They usually have no issue building super tank, proceeding to gather large amounts of infliction, and then Menov's Fang + Etacof you to death. Normally we'd think people could just run away from the Menov's Fang, but Hexers usually have a way to catch up easily, through either Blink or some kind of movement boost from their other class.

That said, I do agree with Words of Power making Devocation lose its appeal. I'd be up for lowering its effects at max rank, as well as making Voidveil's reduction higher - not many people like using Void Assasin anymore. The reasons are because:

1. Dagger damage is relatively low compared to anyone two-handing, and running damage stacking (buffs that raise your damage by percent).
2. Voidveil is main class, and is essential to almost all of Void Assasin's arsenal, forcing people to main this class if they want to get a good use out of it at all.
3. Cutthroat requires an infliction check, when most of the aforementioned mages have loads and loads of status resist. There's also the part where said mages can just sit against the map border to protect their back, even after the Void Assasin manages to get Veil Off.

Otherwise, I think the biggest problem here is Hexer's potential. It's not overused because it's fun; it's because it's incredibly strong.

Dev had suggested an idea about making Hexer more interactive/fun rather than meta, if memory serves correctly, and I'd totally be up for that myself.

The reason I'm against a Charge Mind cooldown is because when people actually stack resists and run RES, they're basically shutting down an Evoker by dropping their damage to about 130-ish (with Charge Mind) and forcing them to rely on invocations. That they seldom get to achieve, assuming their foe has a silence that is not Absolute Fear (such as Rank 5 Black Bubble, Drown, Rank 5 Rebia, etc.)

I'd like more items that encourage different playstyles as well, however.

To note, people actually prefer running Hexer over Evoker, 7 times out of 10. The only times I've seen people prefer Evoker over it, have been when they're making either:

1. Lightning mage
2. Boxer/Evoker with Vydel
3. Kensei/Evoker with Tarnada

TL;DR - the core problem does not involve Evoker that much. It's Hexer, and Void Assasin's low potential.
While Hexer is largely an issue, I am aware that Dev brought up that it should likely be changed, so I trust that it will be handled in due time.

The core issue here is not hexer however, a hexer does not churn out enough damage to make magic defenses irrelevant, Evoker can currently do that and be safe with enough spacing, wind, lightning and fire evokers do this all marvelously with the tools they are provided.

I also think that Evoker is a bit too good as a subclass, which allows you to stack damage and DR with stuff like 1v1 and combination strike/Weathered Body, and also be able to hold a large threat radius with HSDW active, the threat radius of an evoker is severely reduced when they do not have it up.

On the topic of CM, it having a cooldown merely gives a window of opportunity for people who need to respect its damage potential, similar to wraithguard, maybe a 3 round cooldown is a good start, as steal and null shell do exist to take care of this threat as well, it costing 6m does mean its a big investment for sure.

And finally on the topic of mages preferring Hexer, I find that to be false, Fire mages are in abundance and they are pretty effective at what they do, wind mages can be solid for they have initiative and really potent damage, Lightning mages sort of explain themselves but they at least require a crit-based supplementary class, Ice Mages have their own supplement class and its Verglas, and Earth Mages can dish out pretty sustained damage in short range, while remaining tanky enough to take punishment for their range, its more like 50/50 to me, as it should be, the debate of Hexer vs Evoker is always whether you prefer Tankiness and sustained damage vs Range and Burst Damage.

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Re: An issue with mages

Post by MegaBlues » Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:46 pm

Did someone say Evoker?

Jokes aside, I'm not sure Evoker needs a nerf. Their class mechanic is damage, and they're not the most efficient at it; they have to use the dreaded elemental damage, have a long wind-up time, and have little utility outside of their damage. Any counterplay to them is a hard counter, because if they can't damage you, you've won. This isn't pre-GR, defenses are percentage-based and cannot be overcome.

If their damage needs to be toned down, they need to be given some utility to make up for it.

As for voidveil, I think that making it 30% reduction for main class and halved if off class is fair.

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Re: An issue with mages

Post by Spoops » Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:53 pm

See, I'm trying to propose ways to play through an evoker's window of damage, rather than straight nerfing its damage, I don't disagree that an Evoker's whole theme should be nuking someone with unprecedented damage numbers.

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Re: An issue with mages

Post by Stenzio » Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:22 pm

Spoops wrote:See, I'm trying to propose ways to play through an evoker's window of damage, rather than straight nerfing its damage, I don't disagree that an Evoker's whole theme should be nuking someone with unprecedented damage numbers.
For the sake of simplicity yes, just add more items that pertain to what Spoops suggested. No damage needs to be nerfed on Evokers. The theme of the class is nuke damage. Having more options to play against this window of damage though (as few exist that are very effective or worthwhile) is a good idea; given one of the only ways currently is High Sanct. tanking.

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Re: An issue with mages

Post by Kiranis » Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:13 am

Just pointing this out. if you use HSDW you can get your invocation out before they can even take an action which is problematic in it's own right

Also if we make it main class only I would also buff it to work on all invocations.
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Re: An issue with mages

Post by Grandpa » Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:47 pm

Kiranis wrote:Just pointing this out. if you use HSDW you can get your invocation out before they can even take an action which is problematic in it's own right

Also if we make it main class only I would also buff it to work on all invocations.
That's kind of the point of HSDW. Or at least one of the attractions to it.

I definitely don't think it should work on all invocations, either.

The rest of these suggestions sound find.
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