Sigrogana May Cry

"VAs are too strong!" "Evokers are too weak!" "Nerf Kinu!"
A place for all your ideas and woes regarding game balance.
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Noxid
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Re: Sigrogana May Cry

Post by Noxid » Fri Aug 24, 2018 8:19 am

Snake wrote:Building solely STR doesn't allow you to use magic along with skills that can't be silenced, you see. The only exception was the Magical set of weapons that had the Spelledge passive, and even though, these only scale majorly from STR and WIL, and those can't go beyond 100 SWA if you're using one of those builds that overly invest in dodge or tankyness. Besides, wielding tomes also give the advantage of having more skill slots, defensive stats and FP to keep abusing Reaver's scaling, while the conventional weapons can't get such luxury.

Also no, it won't kill "many builds". It will just force you to stop abusing DH's Martial Lawbreaker exploit. Yes, exploit. Lonestar made a fine point and anybody can see how unfair it is to compare a tome with a sword/spear etc, when we're talking weapons for 'skill'-type ability usage, since the former was made specifically to be used with 'magic'-type abilities, which have their counterplay and such already set by Silence and other things.
Yes, making a build that has both physical and magic damage types is a good strategy. DH is far from the exclusive way to do this. I don't see how it's a problem even if it is stronger than other options it's not grossly stronger. While tomes do get the very nice benefit of skill slots weapons have their own advantages (Two handing and ability to slot in weapon parts to name a few). My BK/DH that uses a sword can abuse reaver's scaling and doesn't have to sacrifice FP or defensive stats (Although it sure would be nice to ditch str for something else but we've already had threads about str being less desirable).

Yes it will kill certain builds forcing them to just drop the class and just go with another. Why? I'll use an example. I have a Evoker/DH. If she was unable to use the tome with reaver then I guess I'd have to use a melee weapon right? But you know just as well as I do that you aren't gonna get decent SWA by one handing a melee weapon though so why would I stick with it? I'll just ditch the class and go with monk or something for my acrobatic fun. I'd rather we not kill fun class combos though. It's interesting and brings depth to the game I'd encourage more such synergies to be made so we see more build varieties. Exploit? How long ago was it that DH was released? Many years at least and martial lawbreaker has existed in this state without anyone raising a fuss about it. The only person who can say if it's an exploit or not is Dev as only he knows his intentions behind his own skills so let's not start claiming stuff like that.

Look I'll say it again. If tomes really are a problem why don't we just make it so tomes do less damage with martial lawbreaker? Or make it buff melee. Or some other idea you could come up with. I know you can, you're a guy who can list off ideas off all day so how about you do that rather than just disabling an option. Disabling it would be boring. You of all people know how fun the class is to play, you should know how much of a bummer this would be to certain builds and not because of losing damage. Because of losing options, interesting interaction between game mechanics not to mention RP. People still do that right? :?

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Snake
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Re: Sigrogana May Cry

Post by Snake » Fri Aug 24, 2018 10:01 am

A lot of cool stuff (such as Wraithguard + Bodyguard lowering damage by 90%, Fleur not being main class only, Cutthroat not having status infliction, Nachbeben hitting multiple times with Orkam Drehen, Expanding Ice blitzing an enemy multiple times, Bamboo Staff being able to be Conduiz'd/Dragon Remains'd, Turtle Shell being able to be mutated into Unarmored Torso, etc etc.) has been outright disabled before for the same reason and forced people to do worse than simply picking another class instead, those tipped the balance horribly for being way too good compared to the balanced standards we get from average things, so this shouldn't be an exception.

I don't want Reaver to be nerfed when the problem are tomes being usable with it.
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Image ~ Dev, 08/16/2016.

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Re: Sigrogana May Cry

Post by Spoops » Fri Aug 24, 2018 10:14 am

If Martial Lawbreaker skills used your damage type it probably would be a lot more manageable too but like I just said, the problem lies in the fan tomes there Kunai.

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Re: Sigrogana May Cry

Post by Noxid » Fri Aug 24, 2018 10:39 am

Snake wrote:A lot of cool stuff (such as Wraithguard + Bodyguard lowering damage by 90%, Fleur not being main class only, Cutthroat not having status infliction, Nachbeben hitting multiple times with Orkam Drehen, Expanding Ice blitzing an enemy multiple times, Bamboo Staff being able to be Conduiz'd/Dragon Remains'd, Turtle Shell being able to be mutated into Unarmored Torso, etc etc.) has been outright disabled before for the same reason and forced people to do worse than simply picking another class instead, those tipped the balance horribly for being way too good compared to the balanced standards we get from average things, so this shouldn't be an exception.

I don't want Reaver to be nerfed when the problem are tomes being usable with it.
A 90% damage reduction is not cool its broken. Fleur is still usable you just have to choose between the main class benefits of both classes. Cutthroat is still usable. I could go on but non of these are really comparable. Actually theres an idea. Could make lawbreaker main class only even. Just throwing it out there. Some of these examples you gave are the sort of thing im suggesting actually. Tweaks not removal.

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Re: Sigrogana May Cry

Post by Kameron8 » Sat Aug 25, 2018 12:01 am

I'm going to have to recommend the discussion over Reaver and tomes gets its own thread, because it's gotten to the point of muddling the original purpose of this one.

Very few people seem on board with lowering Reaver's scaling directly -- I accept that.

A large majority of people in this thread so far agree that increasing Winged Serpent's cooldown would be beneficial.

A slightly less overwhelming majority of people agree that basic attacks should ignore Snake Dancer, due to the necessary hit check already in place.

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Re: Sigrogana May Cry

Post by Spoops » Sun Aug 26, 2018 2:36 pm

I'm going to have to bring the questionable range of Snake Dancer's vision cone, I was under the impression it was just a cone before, making it at least dealable with in some instances, but I discovered something troubling after testing it out for myself, Snake Dancer's range covers a gross area when done from the map's sides, which is why its so commonly seen on builds that can kite into the corner and move in and out all of the time.

I would think that it would ridiculous and that not many people would pull strategies exactly like this, but a lot more people do play this game since when I thought that.

I'll explain, here is what Cobra's Snake Dancer currently covers:
Image
Image
(The Enma's summons was dodged from this angle)

I understand that the thread already has a bunch of changes for DH in general, but I think at the very least the vision cone for Snake Dancer should be brought into question as well.

Something like this seems more appropriate.
Image

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Noxid
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Re: Sigrogana May Cry

Post by Noxid » Sun Aug 26, 2018 8:33 pm

I'd always assumed it worked in a cone but this would explain all those odd situations I've had where it proc'd in places that didn't seem quite right. I'm all for it being a proper cone rather than that big block.

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Re: Sigrogana May Cry

Post by Neus » Mon Aug 27, 2018 2:48 pm

Which tome weapons are we talking about?

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Re: Sigrogana May Cry

Post by Spoops » Mon Aug 27, 2018 3:09 pm

Neus wrote:Which tome weapons are we talking about?
A little bit worried only those are being addressed currently, but to clarify, Qinglongram, Xuanwuken, Zhuqalaire and Baihurai, otherwise dubbed as the fan tomes by most of the community.

To clarify, my original comment was on how they offer extremely high SWA, comparable to two handed high power swords, while also being the best weapon choice for mages.

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