Mechanics: STR, Battle Weight and Knockdown

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Yark
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Mechanics: STR, Battle Weight and Knockdown

Post by Yark » Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:01 pm

Even as someone new to SL2, I can see that STR is not as competitive or splashable as most other stats. I can also see that discussion on STR has been a trend in this community for some time. With that in mind, I'll keep the actual suggestion brief, but follow up with an elaboration:

If your Battle Weight exceeds that of your attacker, then your chance to resist a knockdown effect is a percent equal to the difference in your Battle Weights.

In other words, let's say we have a Void Assassin sitting at 14 Battle Weight. He's using Cutthroat someone who has 45 Battle Weight. The difference between these two figures is 31, and so the Void Assassin's chance of knocking down his target with a critical Cutthroat (using the Break Down passive) has been reduced from 100% to 69%. Or you could say, the defender's chance to negate the effect is 31% because his Battle Weight is 31 greater.

The same check would be made for things like Pulling Shot, Heavy Tackle, Sky Chariot and so on. Conceptually, the idea here is that strong characters are brutish; they will not be brought to the ground by smaller and physically weaker enemies so easily. You could even throw in a stipulation similar to the evasion check between armor types, and further play with the likelihood of resisting knockdown.

In the above example, we used a difference of 31 Battle Weight. This equates to a 31% chance for the defender to negate knockdown. But let's throw in armor modifiers for fun.

Heavy Armor: 100% (31%)
Light Armor: 50% (16%)
Unarmored: 0% (0%)

So as you can see, wearing heavy armor would allow one to retain the full percent from this Battle Weight difference. Wearing light armor slightly penalizes your effective chance to negate, and wearing unarmored means that you can never negate knockdown no matter how high your Battle Weight is. This somewhat mirrors the evasion mechanic.


There are no doubt dozens of ways to make STR slightly better without breaking the game, but this is not one that I had seen anywhere. Curious to hear feedback.

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Raigen.Convict
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Re: Mechanics: STR, Battle Weight and Knockdown

Post by Raigen.Convict » Wed Aug 29, 2018 4:14 pm

I agree fully on this.
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Re: Mechanics: STR, Battle Weight and Knockdown

Post by JoseJoseRSD » Wed Aug 29, 2018 4:20 pm

This is a really good suggestion, one of the great problems with powerful characters is the lack of feeling power in the first place, how can a 5"1fts person bring down a tower of power?

Also, it being based in battle weight makes it great, BW needs to be much more meaningful, but armor type should not differ on this, this is a heavy misconception, like heavy armored people not being capable of evasion, look, heavy armor people is expected to be capable of wearing the heavy armor, so why would they get penalty by doing so? give the penalty to people that can not actually wear the armor.

The same goes here, what if my character has 80 Strength but wears unarmored? are you telling me that there is a stronger character than that? no, but I am simply using a different type of armor, NEITHER EVASION OR THIS EFFECT SHOULD RELY ON ARMOR TYPE, LEAVE THAT TO VA OR BK PASSIVES, EVASION AND KNOCKDOWN EFFECT SHOULD RELY ENTIRELY IN MAX BATTLE WEIGHT, THEN PENALTIES SHOULD BE APPLIED BASED IN CURRENT BATTLE WEIGHT, A SYSTEM AKIIN TO DARK SOULS, BUT PEOPLE SHOULD NOT BE PUNISHED FOR WEARING ONE TYPE OF ARMOR, BUT RATHER REWARDED BASED ON HOW MUCH WEIGHT THEY CAN ACTUALLY LIFT.

So just, dev should do what you are thinking on, in fact, it should apply to many things as well (looking at you, crowd control with no status infliction check) but it should be based in max BW, while evasion should work akin to Dark Souls, aka, you get a penalty based on how near you are to your maximum battle weight (25%, 50%, 70% and 100% respectively)

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Re: Mechanics: STR, Battle Weight and Knockdown

Post by Spoops » Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:44 am

The weight and the power of a character correlating to their strength is arbitrary and up to the player themself so long as its within reason, that said I don't think that this change should take place, Knockdown is a powerful status effect in its own right that is used for CCing the important people to CC in a fight, otherwise heavy damage wins 100% of the time in any fight if they can simply ignore a knockdown proc, also we've been attempting to balance knockdown already by limiting what needs to be done to achieve it, dense thunder used to straight up inflict knockdown, so did pulling shot until recently.

This is why I had suggested it for a shield related talent rather than something like this, as with a shield your character is limited in the ways it can do damage, magic or otherwise thanks to an item called bloody palms which is basically essential to mages trying to do damage these days.

Resisting knockdown should be delegated to more defensive style than offensive style, its part of the reason Martial Artist is the best supplement class to a damage dealer, it can ignore the best CC for locking them down, and cleanse the other CCs meant to lock them down too (Blind, Immobilize, Slow)

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Re: Mechanics: STR, Battle Weight and Knockdown

Post by Chaos » Thu Aug 30, 2018 3:03 am

STR is great when properly utilized. The one big problem with it is that when STR isn't a focus for a build, it can be dumped and ignored without any issues or consequences whatsoever, which is a major problem for a stat system that's meant to punish the character for dumping any given stat.

Knockdown resistance is a good idea, but this doesn't quite fix the underlying issue with STR, namely due to outside sources that also boost BW factoring in.
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Yark
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Re: Mechanics: STR, Battle Weight and Knockdown

Post by Yark » Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:53 am

Spoops wrote:The weight and the power of a character correlating to their strength is arbitrary and up to the player themself so long as its within reason, that said I don't think that this change should take place, Knockdown is a powerful status effect in its own right that is used for CCing the important people to CC in a fight, otherwise heavy damage wins 100% of the time in any fight if they can simply ignore a knockdown proc, also we've been attempting to balance knockdown already by limiting what needs to be done to achieve it, dense thunder used to straight up inflict knockdown, so did pulling shot until recently.

This is why I had suggested it for a shield related talent rather than something like this, as with a shield your character is limited in the ways it can do damage, magic or otherwise thanks to an item called bloody palms which is basically essential to mages trying to do damage these days.

Resisting knockdown should be delegated to more defensive style than offensive style, its part of the reason Martial Artist is the best supplement class to a damage dealer, it can ignore the best CC for locking them down, and cleanse the other CCs meant to lock them down too (Blind, Immobilize, Slow)
Let's try to separate role-play from actual character parameters. Imagine if I played a Black Knight/Arbalest or something, capped STR/DEF/VIT, and claimed to be super agile and able to move at the speed of sound. It's absolutely asinine and completely out of line with what I'm actually playing.

Having said that, I can agree with your point on shields although I think it is a separate issue. Bloody Palms is an extremely competitive item in both PvE and PvP, and I think the problem here, if you want to call it that, comes down to how splashable it is. Everyone wants to deal more damage, and everyone deals either physical or magical damage - both of which are supported by Bloody Palms. It's a no-brainer.

And finally, you made the admission that Monk is one of the best supporting classes for a damage dealer because they do not take a momentum penalty from knockdown. Can't you see how this itself stifles creativity, and why the ability for Body Weight to negate knockdown only encourages more build diversity? It also encourages non-STR builds to add weight to their equipment, if and when they can afford to do so. Currently, stacking Battle Weight is good for.... Arbalest, and Black Knights using Board Shaker? That's about all, isn't it?
Last edited by Yark on Thu Aug 30, 2018 9:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Mechanics: STR, Battle Weight and Knockdown

Post by Yark » Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:58 am

Chaos wrote:STR is great when properly utilized. The one big problem with it is that when STR isn't a focus for a build, it can be dumped and ignored without any issues or consequences whatsoever, which is a major problem for a stat system that's meant to punish the character for dumping any given stat.

Knockdown resistance is a good idea, but this doesn't quite fix the underlying issue with STR, namely due to outside sources that also boost BW factoring in.
Absolutely there are many other things that could be done for STR, and I see that many have already been discussed in this community ad nauseam. I agree with most of what I have read from those old topics, but I didn't feel it was necessary to bring them up again here.

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Re: Mechanics: STR, Battle Weight and Knockdown

Post by Spoops » Thu Aug 30, 2018 9:47 am

Please read the important bits at the end of the line, I said as long as its within reason, the example you gave me is well not within any reason, technically as an Arbalest/BK you could move reasonably fast anyway, what not with CEL not even correlating to your movement speed, Celerity dictates reaction in that manner.

Still we've taken cautionary steps to balance knockdown as is, giving each one a caveat and we also have On-Guard as basically a default thing in every build, if this change were to take place my extremely high damage Ghost/BK with mainly autohits would become ridiculously strong, because they can support up to 80 B/W before reductions, not even to mention what a Dullahan could pull off and those things need to be CC'd the hardest in any fight.

As for IC, getting knocked down doesn't directly correlate to being pushed down onto the ground, you have to sustain a pretty sizeable blow from above, or have your legs swept out from under you, in Sonic Shell's case its just because the cacophonous blast is so powerful, heavier armor might even make it easier to fall down, making it harder to get up in some instances.

There just has to be a better way to buff STR, I was thinking it could add straight up damage to your basic attacks, 1/2 of your STR correlating or 1/4 of your STR to damage on basics would probably be a huge boon to it to start with, and serve to make duelists want STR in their builds again.

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Re: Mechanics: STR, Battle Weight and Knockdown

Post by Noxid » Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:43 pm

The problem I see with it giving knockdown resist is there is currently no way to check the other person's BW. It would require something added so you could judge your chances of knocking someone down. I'd agree with with giving some other kind of buff to str. Something along the lines of more damage, more crit damage something like that.

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Re: Mechanics: STR, Battle Weight and Knockdown

Post by Yark » Thu Aug 30, 2018 2:16 pm

Noxid wrote:The problem I see with it giving knockdown resist is there is currently no way to check the other person's BW. It would require something added so you could judge your chances of knocking someone down. I'd agree with with giving some other kind of buff to str. Something along the lines of more damage, more crit damage something like that.
The variable does exist in battle and us used to determine damage of one's Board Shaker, and whether or not Heavy Tackle inflicts knockdown. It's just a matter of adding another check when knockdown is to apply, which is why I categorized this thread as a mechanics suggestion.

Just to reiterate, this is not a thread where I complain about how knockdowns are too strong. They're not, especially with the recent change to Pulling Shot. Rather, this is a "here's a neat thing you could do for STR" thread.

Spoops, I also disagree that your Ghost scenario would be overpowered. You can build to effectively counter anything in this game, and it's essentially a 20-way rock-paper-scissors. I've got 84% fire resistance on my tower mage. Is that overpowered? ;b

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