Ghost needs main class stat bonus + Rework to Rising Game + Some last suggestions

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JoseJoseRSD
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Ghost needs main class stat bonus + Rework to Rising Game + Some last suggestions

Post by JoseJoseRSD » Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:52 pm

I know what are you guys gonna say.

1. Presenting the problem

"NOOOO, GHOSTS GETS TOO MANY STATS, THEY HAVE CONDITIONAL STAT BOOSTS BASED ON THEM BEING LOW HP, TOO OP, SHOULD NOT HAVE MORE!!"

Well, here is the problem, everyone else have stat boosts, It is true that Ghosts gets the most, 9 points in 5 stats, sounds great? well, they need to be at 10% HP to get all theses bonus, most of the time, they could be downright killed if they are that low HP, so what will stat bonus count for?

There are many classes that get a lot of stat bonuses, Ghost are no different, they simply sacrifice the most to get the most, meanwhile, Mages sacrifice what? they get Astral Belt + Galren, they only sacrifice FP and momentum (or start enchanted lol) then they get +16 stats, who is complaining about that? should mages also get no main bonus? because every other class also gets main bonuses.

While I have the belief that Ghost needs reworked, since it is one of the oldest class in the game, giving it main class stat bonus would be the first step, wanna know which one should be the next step?

2. Solution to people getting too many stats

This one, make rising game % based, every 10% HP lost, it should give 2% of the stats mentioned, at 50% it should give 2.5% more then another 2.5% at 25%, that would make 10%, assuming that the overall stat for people is 40 (Ikr is it not the softcap, but it is the average) at best, one could get 10 points for a single stat, one point more than the previous iteration, the trap? simple, now you have to level up stats more to get points, if you do not have the stats, you do not get the bonuses, that means you will get decent good stats if you actually want the stats, any other stat? they barely get points, what if someone gets 60 CEL? diminishing returns will do the job and anything after 60 will just have no meaningful impact.

Of course, this could mean a problem, builds with only Four stats aka SKI, CEL, LUC, GUI and VIT, will only get the stats they are asking for, if they get too much of any stats, diminishing returns will make it less impactful, on way too spread builds it will not be much of a problem, it is not like they have enough stats to get good stats from rising game anyway.

3. Some suggestions to low HP based things

A) Berserker shell is good, but Dev should add to it actual info about how much crit it gives, the description says nothing except that it gives critical for axes based in missing HP.

B) Red Cape should cure fear upon entering on immunity, I already tested it and it keeps fear as you are immune, also, to make the item more pickable, it should cure and make immune to hesitation upon entering less than 50% HP

C) Ghost Red Rain is pretty useless except for basic attack builds, the problem is, even in basic attack builds, people would rather get a way to deal AOE damage than pick this skill, why not add a effect similar to rebound, but this time, Deffense? in basic attack builds, rebound is hard to apply, so with this skill, you could apply red rain + rebound if you are too afraid of dying in Low HP.

D) Last Chance is useless in too many times that is supposed to save you, why not make it so it gives you one turn of immortality instead, but waste claret call on anyone that attacks you? this way you could probably pick someone that is not paying attention to you, but will not let you do much against people that are actually trying to do something to kill you.

E) Ghost needs a rework, yep, not too much of a secret, the class is way too old, why not make it an axes (scythes) based class for people that want to get damaged? Kensei is already sword based (More in Katanas, but more versatility should be given in this matter) also, the next duelist class hopefully will be a spear based one, Dragoon probably, so this would be a perfect opportunity to get the duelist weapon triangle!

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Re: Ghost needs main class stat bonus + Rework to Rising Game + Some last suggestions

Post by GSM » Fri Aug 31, 2018 2:47 am

While I have different gripes with Ghost than these, I'll go over this- seeing as I play Ghost quite regularly.

I'll be snipping out unimportant parts.
JoseJoseRSD wrote:"NOOOO, GHOSTS GETS TOO MANY STATS, THEY HAVE CONDITIONAL STAT BOOSTS BASED ON THEM BEING LOW HP, TOO OP, SHOULD NOT HAVE MORE!!"

Well, here is the problem, everyone else have stat boosts, It is true that Ghosts gets the most, 9 points in 5 stats, sounds great? well, they need to be at 10% HP to get all theses bonus, most of the time, they could be downright killed if they are that low HP, so what will stat bonus count for?

While I have the belief that Ghost needs reworked, since it is one of the oldest class in the game, giving it main class stat bonus would be the first step
This is a common issue that I'll bring up very easily. Bonus stats won't help you if you get killed before you can use them. I've never heard the "Ghosts get the most stats" part before, but in this sense, I'll refer to it as starting strength; Ghost only gets 5 total points in one stat, other than Rising Game (+5 RES, for that matter), while another class of a dubious level such as Priest rests comfortably at 22 total (+3 DEF/RES from Aegis, +6 FAI from Piety, +5 WIL/FAI from Staff Mastery).

That isn't to say that Rising Game is entirely useless. When it's needed in the thick of a battle, you can bet that it can make or break you- rely on it too much, and you might get floored, but if you build with it in mind or not at all, you can truly thrive. I personally think that main class stats would be preferable to make Ghosts start off evenly, instead of relying exclusively on Rising Game.
JoseJoseRSD wrote:2. Solution to people getting too many stats

This one, make rising game % based, every 10% HP lost, it should give 2% of the stats mentioned... that would make 10%, assuming that the overall stat for people is 40 at best, one could get 10 points for a single stat, one point more than the previous iteration, the trap? simple, now you have to level up stats more to get points... what if someone gets 60 CEL? diminishing returns will do the job and anything after 60 will just have no meaningful impact.

Of course, this could mean a problem, builds with only Four stats aka SKI, CEL, LUC, GUI and VIT, will only get the stats they are asking for, if they get too much of any stats, diminishing returns will make it less impactful, on way too spread builds it will not be much of a problem, it is not like they have enough stats to get good stats from rising game anyway.
This is a non-issue. Rising Game is in a fairly good spot. Making it percentage-based would only make Ghost even more powerful, rather than balancing them out. Just saying "but diminishing returns will totally stop them" is true of anything. There's also the bonus stat limit, so you can't go much further than a set limit.
JoseJoseRSD wrote:A) Berserker shell is good, but Dev should add to it actual info about how much crit it gives, the description says nothing except that it gives critical for axes based in missing HP.
While I agree with this, a main issue with Ghost is that it has nearly no synergy with Duelist, because Ghosts are inclined to use axes or swords. Duelist has nothing to support axes, so this forces a lot of Ghosts to run either a Violet Varon for both effects, or go the Soldier route for Black Knight or Demon Hunter utility- or, alternatively, only use Ghost for its most busted abilities and passives.
JoseJoseRSD wrote:B) Red Cape should cure fear upon entering on immunity, I already tested it and it keeps fear as you are immune, also, to make the item more pickable, it should cure and make immune to hesitation upon entering less than 50% HP
People usually pick up Red Cape for the extra HP, but the cure to fear is fair. The hesitation thing would only make it a busted item.
JoseJoseRSD wrote:C) Ghost Red Rain is pretty useless except for basic attack builds, the problem is, even in basic attack builds, people would rather get a way to deal AOE damage than pick this skill, why not add a effect similar to rebound, but this time, Deffense? in basic attack builds, rebound is hard to apply, so with this skill, you could apply red rain + rebound if you are too afraid of dying in Low HP.
No, no, Red Rain is entirely useless. With most basic attack builds that want AoE damage, if you're running a sword Ghost, just pick up Crystal Rose, problem solved. Red Rain needs a serious rework, and the same could be said for a LOT of the class' skills.
JoseJoseRSD wrote:D) Last Chance is useless in too many times that is supposed to save you, why not make it so it gives you one turn of immortality instead, but waste claret call on anyone that attacks you?
This just either devalues Last Chance in single fights, which is where it exceeds, OR it'll turn Ghost into the new fad. And the only real way that Last Chance becomes useless is if tiles or damaging status effects go into play. It's saved me a lot of times- I don't see a reason for it to fuck you over when you can proc it up to four times in a row with a 4v4 fight.
JoseJoseRSD wrote:E) Ghost needs a rework, yep, not too much of a secret, the class is way too old, why not make it an axes (scythes) based class for people that want to get damaged?
It's not the fact that the class is old, per se. It's more that the skills and abilities are under heavy scrutiny because of the ever-present spectre that is Ether Invitation. If Ghost ever gets buffed, which is highly unlikely, people will cry that someone will use Ether Invitation despite its numerous nerfs and then it's back to the drawing board- Ghost gets weak, Ghost becomes obsolete.

Sure, I could spend this time to talk about some shitty skills like Gravestone or Death Gaze or Dark Imbue or Afflicted Spectre or Painproof, or how Fitting Form completely negates the chance to use axes because of their natural weight, or how the +48 HP passive is barely ever used, but instead, I want to shift the gaze over towards Kenseis and how easy they have it compared to Ghosts.

Kenseis get insanely great passives, a secure and powerful fear/hesitate/silence all in one, +25% damage (+30% if spirited) whenever they so choose, extra power for using the appropriate attack, negating guns, punishing gun users for existing, you name it. Even their weapons scale better, since STR's sorry state prevents most Ghosts from existing, while Kensei doesn't have to worry at all, abusing the fact that they don't need STR in order to have 100+ SWA all the time. Ghosts get none of this, rather focusing on the whole aspect of "I'm suicidal, therefore when I'm in the red, it's do or die". Ghost doesn't compare to how powerful Kensei is, and that's the issue I have with it.

Once Ghost can properly compete with Kensei, I'll be fine. I just thought I'd share my opinion on this post, and what all I think about the whole Ghost v Kensei debacle.
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Re: Ghost needs main class stat bonus + Rework to Rising Game + Some last suggestions

Post by Lolzytripd » Fri Aug 31, 2018 10:03 am

ghosts bonus stats are in a rough place because
a) diminishing returns, bonus stats aren't what they used to be
b) I'm pretty sure they don't count as class/racial and count towards the maximum bonus amount you can get during a fight.

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Re: Ghost needs main class stat bonus + Rework to Rising Game + Some last suggestions

Post by Fern » Fri Aug 31, 2018 4:35 pm

Rising Game doesn't count towards the stat cap.

I just wanted to stop by and mention that I also wish Ghost would be able to compete with Kensei a bit more. Sure, as it stands, it has some utility to it you (sometimes) could prefer over Kensei, but the katana man tends to be the best option.

Currently it feels like this:

"Would you like to live a bit longer? Then choose Ghost."
"Would you like to dodge, be able to reliably silence, and do more damage? Then choose Kensei."

Now, don't get me wrong, I don't think Ghost is a completely useless class. It just doesn't have as much appeal as Kensei does at the moment- and the difference in said appeal is fairly drastic.

I think this would be alleviated if the skills that barely see any use (due to being chalked off as a useless or inconvenient to the Ghost in most cases) obtained a rework of some kind.

Red Rain, Dark Imbue, Death Gaze, Gravestone and Painproof are the ones that I personally don't see much use from, if any.

As for what changes could be made to those skills, I'm honestly unsure at the moment. If ideas come to mind I'll likely post again soon. Maybe someone like our fellow Spoops or Kameron8 could come up with something interesting too.
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Re: Ghost needs main class stat bonus + Rework to Rising Game + Some last suggestions

Post by Spoops » Fri Aug 31, 2018 4:47 pm

Ghost could probably work well with a shield implemented into painproof instead of DEF/RES, that way it could reduce its health without putting itself into too much danger, probably a 1:1 shield or even more depending on the skill rank of painproof.

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Re: Ghost needs main class stat bonus + Rework to Rising Game + Some last suggestions

Post by PantherPrincess » Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:23 pm

Death Gaze needs some very big changes as it's probably the least used skill in the whole class. Ghosts do not have a very reliable way of silencing unless paired with another class as the prerequisites are too much for a standard 2 round silence that uses dark damage which is very easily resistible. My suggestion is remove the need to be feared and leave only claret calls marking as a requirement. Also considering the fact that you're sacrificing your claret call marking the silence can be upped to 3 duration or you can do it by rank duration instead. You could instead make it so by using death gaze you not only inflict silence but fear and hesistation as well.
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Re: Ghost needs main class stat bonus + Rework to Rising Game + Some last suggestions

Post by Snake » Sat Oct 27, 2018 1:13 am

Or Death Gaze's silence is impossible to be cured by any means, not even Screamer? Or maybe even the duration is increased depending on how low your HP is? (4 rounds at 50%, 5 rounds at 25%)

Ghost's legacy utility was being 'the' anti-mage class. Why not bring back this theme?
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Re: Ghost needs main class stat bonus + Rework to Rising Game + Some last suggestions

Post by Syeburn » Sat Oct 27, 2018 2:10 am

please fucking save my favorite class god damn

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