General Opinion Survey: Weapon Variety

"VAs are too strong!" "Evokers are too weak!" "Nerf Kinu!"
A place for all your ideas and woes regarding game balance.

How do you feel about weapon variety? What changes would be positive changes to you?

Weapon types (Sword, Axe, Spear, etc.) are quite varied and feel fine.
12
9%
Weapon types (Sword, Axe, Spear, etc.) feel too similar and this should be different.
28
22%
... also, the game would benefit from a system similar to a weapon triangle, where they gain bonuses or penalties when attacking a certain weapon type.
14
11%
... also, the game would benefit if certain enemies were strong against some weapon types and weak versus others.
24
19%
... also, the weapon types would feel more varied if they had more skills associated with them.
50
39%
 
Total votes: 128

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Neus
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General Opinion Survey: Weapon Variety

Post by Neus » Sat Jan 31, 2015 12:33 am

This is one in what will be a long line of player surveys regarding various aspects of the game. Since I am always looking to improve the experience for as many people as possible, this requires gathering feedback, hence these polls. Tell your wife, tell your kids, tell your friends (if they play the game, anyway) to vote. Based on the feedback I gather, I may make adjustments to the game balance/etc. However, nothing is guaranteed, so please keep that in mind.

If you'd like to post an opinion with your vote, you can do so (although it is not necessary), but please follow these guidelines;

1) Do not response to other users' opinions in this thread. I'm not looking for debates, just data.
2) Please include the way you voted for clarity.
3) Please provide your opinion on what would be a more ideal result.
4) Don't go crazy. I'm not going to delete any classes or completely retool them, for example. I'm not going to flip the rug on the entire battle system, either. Don't even suggest it.
5) Keep your opinion relevant to the topic. Don't go on a rant, like 'whaddafrick battle too fast because kenvoker too strong, nerf please'. You can express a similar opinion, but it should be worded more appropriately, like 'Players do too much damage, resulting in battles that feel too quick, and lengthening the battles would make them more enjoyable.' I don't want to hear what you hate, I want to hear what would make things better for you.

Thank you for your participation.

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The Topic: Weapon Variety

This topic is for discussing weapon variety in SL2. Do you feel the weapon variety is noticeable when using weapons of different types? Should there be a greater difference between them (whether mechanically or otherwise)? Etc. You can select any number of options in the poll, and you can post any opinions you feel are relevant to this discussion below.

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Ryu-Kazuki
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Re: General Opinion Survey: Weapon Variety

Post by Ryu-Kazuki » Sat Jan 31, 2015 12:44 am

As much as I love swords, there are too many skills associated with them. Granted there are none for Black Knight, yet.

It only let me pick one option, but I feel two things.

1: Yes, enemies should be strong against some weapons and weak against others.

2: There need to be more skills associated with weapons (especially tomes).
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Re: General Opinion Survey: Weapon Variety

Post by Rendar » Sat Jan 31, 2015 12:47 am

If spears/axes had more skills, compared to KATANERS and/or swords. Maybe people would actually use them and have fun with them.
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Re: General Opinion Survey: Weapon Variety

Post by MegaBlues » Sat Jan 31, 2015 1:11 am

Essentially, every weapon -but- swords needs more love.

Spears are mediocre, axes have nigh zero worthwhile support, tomes are lackluster as actual weapons, guns are more dakka, fists are decent, but Verglas is extremely one-dimensional due to the lackluster WIL tree and Monk skills, sans Quaking Heaven Kick and Dense Thunder aren't well worth using, and daggers need more variety.

Weapons working differently mechanically would be too limiting and is more fit for Disgaea, where you have a large party to control.

Semi-related, weapons need more balance between their stats (power, weight, accuracy), rarity, and special effects. Here's looking at you, Coral Wo-Dao.

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Re: General Opinion Survey: Weapon Variety

Post by Nytingale » Sun Feb 01, 2015 2:08 am

"Weapon types (Sword, Axe, Spear, etc.) feel too similar and this should be different."
-- Currently, there seems to be nothing that uniquely identifies between all weapon types. Because of all the different materials we can now use through crafting, it's very possible to have weapons that feel the same regardless of type. Sure, it adds more flexibility, but it kills immersion for me to be quiet honest. There becomes no real "pro" or "con" to choosing a weapon type unless it doesn't have a Weapon Skill that you really want. Well, there's not many of those except for Swords anyway...

"... also, the game would benefit from a system similar to a weapon triangle, where they gain bonuses or penalties when attacking a certain weapon type."
-- I feel as if this would build towards having more meaning in what type of Weapon you decide to go with. Or, to make it another factor when contemplating what type of Class you wish to go with at least. It'd also deter the feeling of all the weapon types feeling the same as well, as you'd be at some disadvantage when facing against a Character with your "Weapon's Weakness". I don't even think it'd be that big of a deal in terms of "repercussions" as it'd give more meaning to getting Maneuver:Sub-Attack for Characters (and even having another Weapon Expertise Trait max'd out).

"... also, the weapon types would feel more varied if they had more skills associated with them."
-- You've heard it a lot -- Pretty much only Swords get any "real love" currently. I for one, would enjoy a lot more Bow-Focused skills (I'm an archery nut, so sue me~). Having the Special-Attack for the Bow was neat and all, but it's not like I could have always used it, so it felt more like a "temporary fix".

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Re: General Opinion Survey: Weapon Variety

Post by Jay » Tue Feb 03, 2015 10:12 am

I honestly couldn't choose any particular choice for my vote.

Here are some issues and/or suggestions that have been around for awhile. If they aren't relevant, ignore them.

1) Daggers are not craftable. I don't understand the reasoning, but this addition alone adds in more 'weapon variety'.
2) More custom weapon parts. Certain weapon types don't even have their fair share of attributes. I was surprised to find out I couldn't decrease the weight of a fist weapon. Another glaring example includes daggers lacking a guard slot, but no compensation like exclusive parts. Overall, just more additions, especially to compensate for two-slot weapons.
3) It looks like some classes are a WIP in the weapon-skill category. Soldier would be a glaring example of incompletion.
4) As for the magic classes. An alternate weapon type should fall under the staves. I believe these 'polearms' should be the driving force of Lantern Bearers and Curates, not tomes. The lantern accessories are outdated and useless. I'd figure those things could be entirely revamped to elemental staves (lanterns). There would be synergy with spear skills, namely the ones that Lantern Bearers currently have. Of course down the line, newer classes can make use of the 'staff' weapon type.
5) Offensive maneuvers for certain sub additions like shields. These tools should be used as weapons, even if they're condensed to classes.
6) More sizes (with notable differences). A glaring example are the 8/8 craftable 'medium' bows.
7) Incorporating weapon types. For example, organizing http://i.imgur.com/WI1cgMs.png to something like 'Ranged Weapon' and right underneath that 'Weapon Type: Medium Bow'. Just something to make future additions less of a hassle.
8) To 'balance' the variety, weapon rarities need to be scrutinized. Some just completely outshine others with the new rebellion enchant for instance. And there's also the fact there's little difference in distinguishing, for example, a katana versus a medium sword's statistics.
9) More Item Effects would be nice. Possibly exclusive ones that can be found and enchanted to certain weapons.

I think I'll just stop here. There's enough to read in between the lines and hopefully get ideas flowing.

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Re: General Opinion Survey: Weapon Variety

Post by Maikito » Tue Feb 03, 2015 1:22 pm

What everyone else said, there's an oversaturation of Sword skills in the game currently.

Spears have four, maybe five skills that are exclusive to them.
Axes have less than that.
Bows have quite a few skills, they are somewhat viable, but they still are a bit dull in terms of actually usage.
Fists have a good bit of skills about them as well, though they're a little better at what they do.
Guns have a decent amount of skills about them, and they feel -okay- to me at least.
Tome skills seem nigh-non-existent. There's very little reason for them besides to boost spell power.

I picked a few of the various answers asking for change, but what I really would like to see is:

1) More Weapon variations.

Swords have Daggers and Katanas as their "sub" categories for weapons. Guns have Rifles, Shotguns, and Pistols. Axes have clubs, and Fists have Tonfas I think? Bows and tomes. . . I don't even know if they have any sort of sub category type of weapon.

Basically why I'm pointing this out is: Outside of Swords and Guns, many weapons don't have any sort of Variety in the class of weapons themselves. While this is not a big deal, It'd be nice to have more of this in the other weapons.

Spears could get Halberds, which deal slashing instead of pierce, and more "Staves" that deal blunt.
Axes probably need only about one type of variation, maybe a few more small, hand axe type axes.
Fists could tack on more Claw weapons, and more Tonfas.
Bows should have disparity as well, with Longbows which are more geared towards long range, Crossbows (Perhaps?) Deal in mid, and Shortbows (Obviously) handle the short.
Tomes maybe get Grimoires and Talismen/Cards. Grimoires maybe having the ability to have AoE basic attacks, with some sort of drawback like decreased spell power bonus. And Talismans/Cards could perhaps instead deal no damage whatsoever, but instead have a chance to inflict the enemy with a set status effect.

2)Specialization Rewards.

Specializing in different types of weapons gives no real sense of,"Hey, I'm a spear user". The only thing that differentiates the masteries of weapons are a slight damage boost. More Traits that aid those who specialize (reasonably) would be nice. sorta like how Special Attacks changed up weapon performance a bit.

3)More skills

Pretty self explanatory.

------

If things like this were introduced, I feel it would create a greater sense of variety in not only weapon choices, but also in Classes and how they are used themselves. This also opens up a few more doors for more creative Promotion classes.

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Re: General Opinion Survey: Weapon Variety

Post by Ranylyn » Tue Feb 03, 2015 1:49 pm

I am opposed to giving mobs resists to specific weapon types due to being unable to change gear mid battle, unless an FE-like system of being able to select from 3-5 different equipped weapons were added. Which would likely be a terrible idea due to the absurd skill variety that would enable. Yes, you'd still be limited by SP and skill slots, but it could still be incredibly nasty.

That said, existing weapon types do need more love, minus swords. Take spears, for example. 4 spear attacking skills exist. One is on a class whose promos can't even use spears without talents or traits, and another does damage based on Str/Cel on a class with no Cel gains. There's a neat gimmicky skill to change a spear's element... with attacks that roll to hit, and 3 of the 4 spear skills are autohits. HMM. Long story short, to use spears even half as well as swords, you need to basically level as a VA/Kensei for the stats and then switch to LB/BK at high levels to get the spear skills. Got to admit, that's pretty dumb.

And axes? I don't even need to say it. The people have spoken about this more than enough times.


Above all else, what we need is...

1) More availability. For example, Duelist loses access to spears (an by extension, Couloir) with both it's promos. Soldier loses access to Axes and Spears (And by extension, Mad Chop, Round Trip, Turnover, and Thousand Stab) when it becomes a tactician. A class should not lose access to it's base class's equipment like this. By comparison, see how an Arbalest can still use guns even though there's no real point.

2) More "general" weapon skills, like Repel, Hanging, or a Vampire's Banquet. Skills that any weapon can use. This would give a more even common ground to not make any one weapon inferior, while allowing other weapons to have more specialized skillsets.

3) Minor diversification in range. One common gimmick in some RPGs (See: Tactics Ogre, Disgaea) for example, is to allow a spear's normal attacks to hit 2 tiles in a line at once. If you can line your foes up this way, this would be a neat way to compensate for generally being weaker than swords or axes, while it's generally higher accuracy often serves little purpose since most of it's skills are autohit anyways. We could do a lot with this, such as a medium sword only hitting directly in front, while a greatsword can hit one in front and to the diagonal right, or left, depending on if it's mainhand or offhand. This could be used to make every weapon worth considering by giving some weaker ones more variety. (Other ideas: A scythe can hit 3 in front like a sweeper, a shotgun can hit everything in in range in the direction you fire in, etc)

4) Skills that make sense for that class's stats. Swap Thousand Stab and Couloir, for example, since Soldier has no Cel growth and Duelist has all the hit it needs anyway.

5) More weapon skills for classes that can use those weapons. Duelist gets ONE spear skill, Soldier gets ONE sword skill, VA gets ONE dagger skill, you get the idea. A spear duelist is a prime example of something nearly pointless, since you may as well just use swords with that many options.

6) More Cross-weapon skills. As of now, the only one is Warning Shot, which works with both Bows and Guns. There's a lot of skills that would work well with another weapon. For example, I do not understand why Daggers cannot use Sidecut, Guns cannot use Poison Shot, Swords cannot use Mad Chop, you get the idea.
*loud burp*

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Re: General Opinion Survey: Weapon Variety

Post by Mr. Red Letter » Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:03 am

As there is certain wepon types that have other values and can be able to utilize 2 types of wepon types such as argus and xyston, there should be more like it. I have a migraine and i didnt bother to read everything above dont judge me. What im saying is there should be more mix types of an axe-spear like argus or like it and different wepon mixes suck as even a Dagger-sword as stupid as it may sound. i just feel some people are left out depending on their class, i dont see a ranger with a blade "ON" their bow for a close range melee js

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Re: General Opinion Survey: Weapon Variety

Post by Murderfox » Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:17 am

I like the idea of new weapons or takes on weapons and stuff. Heck, the talisman cards suggested by Maikito made me froth at the mouth a bit.

It would be quite nice to see stuff like that with unique abilities. I know a lot of people love the concept of this sort of stuff purely on the roleplay it can add to the game.

Ofc, Neus probably expected us to make grabbyhands and go ' mooooooore! ' I think.

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