Something for Villains

Have an idea for the game? Something you'd like to see improved? This is where you should post it.
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WaifuApple
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Something for Villains

Post by WaifuApple » Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:42 am

Well, it's not often I try to suggest something... Or do much at all... But I figure I'd bring up a suggestion I've been thinking about. After all, the worst that could happen is, well... The suggestion not happening... And, well, that's not so bad. Worth making a try, though.

Making some observations of the game, it's been so much easier to be on the "good" side, than it has to be on the bad side, because the "good" side has everything going for it... The existence of the guards alone is a huge advantage for them, since the majority of RP seems to take place in Sigrogana... with them having a lot more going for them, and a lot more power... (Naturally, of course. They're guards, why would they not?)

Villains tend to lean more towards "Event" Characters, sometimes. Characters that you only use in big situations, or events... Though this is mostly for villains trying to have influence or effect. Now, the problem with this is that they're limited to being level 60... Meaning, when it comes down to it, all that you need to beat a villain is to happen to counter their build, and... That's it, really. It means that villains usually form groups, to have any chance... And even then, they're still only as formidable as the people they face.

With GMs being capable of having characters with level caps higher than 60... and this is probably asking a lot, but... Would it ever be possible... say, if you discussed heavily with a GM, about a villain character, and got their approval...

...for GMs to allow some villains to have a level cap increase? It could be monitored, and I imagine the GMs would be able to ensure that only trustworthy people get this treatment... and suffer accordingly if it's abused, so misuse seems really unlikely, so long as the permission granting stays solely GM, and doesn't get into anyone else's hands.

I imagine some people won't agree with this... And it seems like a long shot to ask. But, as I said. Worth a try. The worst I could do is fail, and that's about it.
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Shujin
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Re: Something for Villains

Post by Shujin » Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:57 am

As much as I'd like for villian chars to get some advantages there are also Villian chars were I really say "Nah please not." And those are exactly those that you mention. Those "I only pop up on this event, but am never around anywhere else!" villian types, these one off villians that are just there for their little suicide misison just so something happens. Cause considering the games system? Thats kinda silly.

We had a bunch of people playing pretty good villians actually, the issue is only...You never notice them cause they are good, which in turn is sort of boring. And THESE villians even stopped playing after a while cause "Actually...Even when I play it smart I can't go anywhere." Cause for that the wolrd is to stale and no bigger changes are allowed. This encourages the more open "Stupid" villians, cause they are more fun and are actually seen.

For bigger plot lines, Chaos usually helps with some sort of Mobs or a Boss character he generates with edited stats/skills...So I guess thats basically what you are asking just for player villians? While I wouldn't mind such, if the player really worked towards it and "Deserved it" in a way for this small advanatge against the huge numbers/metabuilds they are probably facing, I really don't think "One off villians" should ever. Though again...Why? The biggest impact player villains can take in any scenario is influencing a few other characters and smaller groups, and even THAT only if those allow it.

TL;DR:
While I do not mind this, when monitored by chaos, I doubt that really changes much. The base system of Sigrogana just doesn't allow for much which has it's cons and pros in itself.

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Re: Something for Villains

Post by Spoops » Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:54 am

There's no mechanical advantage you can really give them without being unfair, the more prominent villains are the ones who remain discreet about what they do within public, but still are able to hold meaningful impact when they do act out, I'd hate to use my own character as an example so I won't, but there are only just a few like what I described.

My only advice is to get numbers, discuss a good team comp as well, and as long as you have that to fall back on, you should be well off.

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Re: Something for Villains

Post by PantherPrincess » Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:51 am

I was thinking about something interesting once like a Morality tab or anything of that nature that lets you choose between Good, Neutral, & Evil. Each one of course benefits the character in some way. But like Spo said you just have to find numbers as well.
:?

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Re: Something for Villains

Post by ChainmailleAddict » Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:39 am

I feel like a discretionary level cap increase for certain characters has a very high potential for abuse (or accusations thereof), villain or not. To my knowledge, intentionally-strong event characters are already a thing and the best part of this game is that *anyone* can achieve the same stats and build with enough time and knowledge. Some players would no doubt grow resentful of their higher-leveled peers, and even with monitoring (which I doubt GMs would want to be responsible for) I feel like the cons would outweigh the pros.
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Re: Something for Villains

Post by WaifuApple » Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:07 am

The reason I suggested it be one off villains or rare occurrence villains, though, is because giving it to commonly reoccurring characters would mean that a player is just walking around with a higher they can pull out at any time... And that's a little more iffy.

...and yes, you do need to team up, and plan things... But even then, it just seems like you'll still get crushed, unless you're specifically on the side of one of the basic "gods" of PvP, because their builds are so absurd that you just can't... and once you've come up against that... It stops being fun, because you know you're going to lose, and... If you're getting into a fight you're basically doomed to lose because you can't avoid said fight, because they're guards, Welp... Enjoy the jail time. That makes things so much harder for villains, as one guard can turn into 4, and team composition means nothing when you go against some characters. I don't want to be like them, perfecting the numbers, and collecting the items I need, specifically fine-tuning... just to be a compelling villain, but it feels like you have to.

And... While it is nice that anyone can, with time and effort, reach the same build... There's a point where you start taking more time and effort to get only a tiny bit stronger... And when as a villain, facing up against a certain type of build in particular is bound to screw you, and a team with you over... When 4 people isn't enough to even look like you're doing anything...

...it feels like some kind of advantage needs to be made for some villains. If not increasing the level cap, at least... something would be better than nothing. I know there's not much that can be done mechanically, but... Maybe there's some option that could he considered. And I may have an idea.
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Re: Something for Villains

Post by Shujin » Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:33 pm

Yeah, but anything you would give them is also unfair, Spo isn't wrong there. And the "one offs" can already get said advantage from Choas if you discuss this with him, or dyst maybe aswell. I just find them usually extremely boring as villains cause it all boils down to "Rawr, rawr, I am evil! Now watch attack this strategically absolutely useless point like the arena or let me suicide attack cellsvich!" Most of the time. We did have a few better events, aswell but... This is how most of those "One offs" go like and for me it would feel weird when....Let's say those people already abuse those very meta build and then all get a level cap increase while literally never having put any effort in the char? That feels iffy for me and is indeed no fun.

I think there isn't much you can do about it to be honest.
One thing I THINK should still be adressed is how progression works currently. The people that have a few friends in the game can easily dish out 1-2 maxed characters a day. Including all inks they need. Even without Tower it's not hard to just chase some high level cores for that sweet full clear exp. So anyone who has a bit experience in the game can reach Max level and gear very easily. You say with "Time and effort we can reach the same level" I feel you need neither currently and thats highly disapointing in an RPG game, cause it's way to easy to reach. But oh well, not opening that can any further.

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Re: Something for Villains

Post by WaifuApple » Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:46 pm

While I agree progression is too easy, I honestly don't trust a fix to that to be any good. While it is too easy, it's also too dull and boring, and it needs to be made fun before it's made harder. And even still, the people who can get on the most will be the most OP, with that, so people with somewhat busy timetables can't compete... And most of the people already meta at the moment have a lot of free time, so it won't do anything... Which is why I wouldn't appeal for that.

In regards to making villains more powerful, for events, instead of one off characters getting level caps... Instead, it could be possible that in the case of an event, with GM permission, a character could be given "Demonic Translation", if possible, and have it removed from them after the event, so they don't stay OP forever.

That leaves potential for characters that aren't one off to be more powerful for events, while not being able to flaunt that power outside of events.

...there could be so much more suggested, or done, and I'm sure there are better suggestions... But suggesting a new feature to help villains would require a lot more fleshing out, and I don't have the ideas for that.

(I suggest Demonic Translation because it doesn't give you the ability to throw a bunch of stats in whatever stat you choose, so you can't make unused stats way too good. That and soft cap stays the same. Damage reduction... May be worrying, but I haven't seen it in practice on a player before, so I don't know.)

Also, note: With time and effort for me means that you're putting in time and effort beyond anything that would be "fun" as, even with the amount of time spent grinding and finding items to actually be good... There's nothing all that fun about it. Finding items is boring and tedious, since dungeon mobs are laughably easy, and only serve to wear the player down because there's nothing fun about fighting waves and waves of something laughably easy.
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Re: Something for Villains

Post by Fern » Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:11 pm

I think that for now, it'd be much easier if GMs could upload temporary builds to specific villain characters.

Maybe that would make them less prone to immediately resorting to full-on copy-paste meta just to not get instantly jailed.
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Re: Something for Villains

Post by WaifuApple » Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:20 pm

That idea sounds interesting...

...but I have no idea what that would entail. Would it just be like... if you LE'd and made a new build, but with no worries of having to level up again, or would there be more to it as an idea?
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