Beaten down, and can't get up again.

"VAs are too strong!" "Evokers are too weak!" "Nerf Kinu!"
A place for all your ideas and woes regarding game balance.
Nerserus
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Re: Beaten down, and can't get up again.

Postby Nerserus » Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:41 am

Okay then, show me where you combatted anything I said.

Your argument was: RP should be first and foremost, Some tactics are better than all the others (I said that we go 50/50 maximum but your response to that was lost in translation I guess) you say it doesn't nerf healing (But it does) that you played longer than me (Falacious argument) that RP is a second thought to my group (Personal attack)

That's it. That's literally all you said in response to me. You didn't like my points, so you ignored them, that's the bottom line.

The observers will be the judge of that I guess.

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Farkon
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Re: Beaten down, and can't get up again.

Postby Farkon » Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:44 am

Spoops wrote:RP Should be first and foremost, but that doesn't stop tactics from rising up and being better than any other, thats meta and it always happens, balance is a constant effort.

The points in your post would be fine and dandy if this wasn't an RP game, I guess that occurs as a second thought to the Ephemeral group though.


RPing in fights takes far too long as it is, moreso in large group fights, real life should be first. Reduced healing will increase the fight duration even longer since now the reviviee will get downed again, then up again, then down again, etc. Say you burst down a enemy player for 500 damage while they have 200 hp, that's 300 damage that was ignored, now after a revive of 70hp the player will fight back a bit, then die again to maybe 200 damage, then get revived again effectively ignoring 130 extra damage. Healing reduction won't work to fix this.

Also, it doesn't make RP sense that you just take less healing after being KOed, having reduced momentum to where you can only take one action does make RP sense since you would be disoriented.


WaifuApple wrote:Yeah, we should really wait for Dev. As a note, however, keep in mind that revival and healing are not the only things in the arsenal of a healer. They can also deal quite a bit of damage, too, without really sacrificing their healing and revival capabilities all that much. Someone who can go good damage, tank damage, too, and heal and revive themselves and allies...

...and you really can't see why it would be considered OP?


Impossible to do. You are either tanking/healing or Damage/healing. There's not enough stat points to go around for all of it.
Last edited by Farkon on Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:50 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Spoops
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Re: Beaten down, and can't get up again.

Postby Spoops » Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:45 am

Yark wrote:
Spoops wrote:I've already expressed and combatted many of the points brought up in the thread, I'm simply waiting for another solution to pop up, though I still stand by than an abuse-able strategy should be stomped out at the heel of the problem.

There are a dozen strategies I can think of, off the top of my head, that you might say are abuse. (We are a very creative bunch, after all.) And I can sympathize with role-play being your first priority, and will not attempt to fault you for it. You've got your dark-themed, armor-clad warrior guy, and that's a pretty cool concept! However, you cannot expect to do well against everyone you come across. With that in mind, you can either choose to avoid confrontation with folks like us, or you can keep picking fights and complaining about the results.


I don't think a lot of strategies in a fight are abusive, a lot of fights take place every single day, whether OOC or IC, and we did rather well against your team in that fight specifically so I don't bring it up, you simply fled after and invoked some changes to the flee rules, but I did see something fundamentally wrong with that fight, or rather the fights that took place before it.

I have nothing more to add at this point, all of my points have been made.

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Re: Beaten down, and can't get up again.

Postby Nerserus » Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:50 am

Spoops wrote:we did rather well against your team in that fight specifically so I don't bring it up


So overall game balance is dictated by whether you personally can win against us or not?

Understandable, have a good day.

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Re: Beaten down, and can't get up again.

Postby Spoops » Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:55 am

Nerserus wrote:
Spoops wrote:we did rather well against your team in that fight specifically so I don't bring it up


So overall game balance is dictated by whether you personally can win against us or not?

Understandable, have a good day.


Don't misconstrue my words, it is because of your fights with other people that I saw something wrong, not with our fight.

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WaifuApple
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Re: Beaten down, and can't get up again.

Postby WaifuApple » Sat Sep 15, 2018 10:41 am

Farkon wrote:Impossible to do. You are either tanking/healing or Damage/healing. There's not enough stat points to go around for all of it.


Not really. I've seen it done many times before, and it's not actually that hard either. You definitely have enough stats to go around when you get so many free stats in the stuff you need from priest down the curate line.
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Re: Beaten down, and can't get up again.

Postby Noxid » Sat Sep 15, 2018 11:44 am

People keep throwing this word "abusive" around. Can you please provide your definition as to what constitutes abusing a skill/spell? I think it's important to clear this particular point up so we know where you are coming from.

Please don't make assumptions either, I am not part of their group. I am just a player giving their opinion.

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Fern
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Re: Beaten down, and can't get up again.

Postby Fern » Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:39 pm

Alright, well, there's a few things I'd like to give my own input on.

Impossible to do. You are either tanking/healing or Damage/healing. There's not enough stat points to go around for all of it.


Long post warning.

It is very much possible to build for large amount of tanking and good healing while packing quite the punch with damage. Because healing spells such as Graft, Phoenix, Healing Discharge (and maybe a few others I might be forgetting) not only go off Light ATK, but they also account for Scaled Weapon Attack.

You just need a casting tool that you can stack Scaled Weapon Attack with that also happens to tie in with your defensive stats. For example, the fan tomes.

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They come in several flavors. STR/WIL/CEL, WIL/CEL/LUC, WIL/SKI/DEF and finally... WIL/DEF/LUC. All of them at 50%, giving a grand total of 150% scaling.

And what happens when you build for the (very much common) fan tomes, or anything that you can stack Scaled Weapon Attack with that works for a casting tool?

You get stuff like this, and I figured it out just by running damage tests on myself:

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In the second screenshot is a Graft followed up by a Phoenix. Assuming I had access to Healing Discharge, I could very much easily pop another 200+ HP heal. The target enemy for Focused Beam has One-on-One (10% DR) and Unarmored Evasion (30% DR) as well as 17 RES.

And I definitely have tanky stats.

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I don't have any FAI investment. That FAI is a result of stat mods from Hikari's Blessing, Well Fed and stamps. In fact, this character wasn't meant to be a healer- it so happens that it's capable of healing a good amount through SWA alone. Status Resist isn't much of an issue because if I get pulled into Strangling Etacof, I can weapon-swap to a Screaming Tome and use Screamer. Poison isn't a threat, because I'm a Dullahan in this case.

What would happen if I decided to be a more optimal race for healing and concentrate on that a little bit more instead?

I present you a generic metafied Elf doomwall with LB/Priest Destiny Curate:

Image

Accounting for...

Aegis from Curate.
Lantern Bearer's +6 RES.
Priest's +5 WIL/FAI from Staves, and +6 FAI innate.
Hikari's Blessing.
Well Fed LV2 from Fugu Katsu, which is +2 all stats.
+2 DEF from Geojewel Bloody Palms (for LV12 Hunted)
+2 WIL/RES from High Mage's Cape.

And finally, a Rebelling Chorus with Pristine Pages (+2 Power).

The rest of equipment is very much optional, you could include a Paper Charm to have your Status Resist amount up to 188 (with Anti-Status trait) or you could swap the Bloody Palms for a Beldam Aegis (30% lightning resistance and +2 DEF).

Skill Slots are not a catastrophic issue here. You get +5 from Spellbook, and +5 from Destiny.

Having good healing while having good damage, and having good tank is very much easy in the current state of the game - and that's part of the reason why Badly Beaten should reduce healing effectiveness, even if it's by 25%. The example I had provided was an Elf, but even then, there's other races that may prove to be even better (such as Glykin).
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Farkon
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Re: Beaten down, and can't get up again.

Postby Farkon » Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:57 pm

Fern wrote:Alright, well, there's a few things I'd like to give my own input on.

Impossible to do. You are either tanking/healing or Damage/healing. There's not enough stat points to go around for all of it.


Long post warning.

It is very much possible to build for large amount of tanking and good healing while packing quite the punch with damage. Because healing spells such as Graft, Phoenix, Healing Discharge (and maybe a few others I might be forgetting) not only go off Light ATK, but they also account for Scaled Weapon Attack.

You just need a casting tool that you can stack Scaled Weapon Attack with that also happens to tie in with your defensive stats. For example, the fan tomes.

Image

They come in several flavors. STR/WIL/CEL, WIL/CEL/LUC, WIL/SKI/DEF and finally... WIL/DEF/LUC. All of them at 50%, giving a grand total of 150% scaling.

And what happens when you build for the (very much common) fan tomes, or anything that you can stack Scaled Weapon Attack with that works for a casting tool?

You get stuff like this, and I figured it out just by running damage tests on myself:

Image

Image

In the second screenshot is a Graft followed up by a Phoenix. Assuming I had access to Healing Discharge, I could very much easily pop another 200+ HP heal. The target enemy for Focused Beam has One-on-One (10% DR) and Unarmored Evasion (30% DR) as well as 17 RES.

And I definitely have tanky stats.

Image
Image
Image

I don't have any FAI investment. That FAI is a result of stat mods from Hikari's Blessing, Well Fed and stamps. In fact, this character wasn't meant to be a healer- it so happens that it's capable of healing a good amount through SWA alone. Status Resist isn't much of an issue because if I get pulled into Strangling Etacof, I can weapon-swap to a Screaming Tome and use Screamer. Poison isn't a threat, because I'm a Dullahan in this case.

What would happen if I decided to be a more optimal race for healing and concentrate on that a little bit more instead?

I present you a generic metafied Elf doomwall with LB/Priest Destiny Curate:

Image

Accounting for...

Aegis from Curate.
Lantern Bearer's +6 RES.
Priest's +5 WIL/FAI from Staves, and +6 FAI innate.
Hikari's Blessing.
Well Fed LV2 from Fugu Katsu, which is +2 all stats.
+2 DEF from Geojewel Bloody Palms (for LV12 Hunted)
+2 WIL/RES from High Mage's Cape.

And finally, a Rebelling Chorus with Pristine Pages (+2 Power).

The rest of equipment is very much optional, you could include a Paper Charm to have your Status Resist amount up to 188 (with Anti-Status trait) or you could swap the Bloody Palms for a Beldam Aegis (30% lightning resistance and +2 DEF).

Skill Slots are not a catastrophic issue here. You get +5 from Spellbook, and +5 from Destiny.

Having good healing while having good damage, and having good tank is very much easy in the current state of the game - and that's part of the reason why Badly Beaten should reduce healing effectiveness, even if it's by 25%. The example I had provided was an Elf, but even then, there's other races that may prove be even better (such as Glykin).


Sounds like this is more of a problem that Healing is based off of SWA when it's not even listed, https://gyazo.com/6403e73808ca1302a3c03cd57486aa86

the 150% Fans are far too powerful, and Priest getting too many extra stats then badly beaten getting a nerf since this would weaken other more RP-centric healing builds while making this one stronger.

Also, for clarification, I haven't used that "meta" build since I want to RP being a monk-like healer and these are my stats without having priest as my class.

https://gyazo.com/b07483f96a72754a0e78f9fedc4b5a3c
See how that's far more modest?
Last edited by Farkon on Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Fern
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Re: Beaten down, and can't get up again.

Postby Fern » Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:05 pm

Oh? You've got an elf monk healer? That's cool~

As for the SWA part- unsure why it's not listed, apparently it's intentional to account for SWA so I included it in my post. Might be the lack of room for text or something along the line.

150% Fan tomes are way too powerful indeed, unfortunately they're not necessary to achieve a damage dealer + healer + tanker combo. I believe they were already addressed in another thread anyway.

Stat stacking is currently a huge part of the meta, and I'm not sure if there's plans for addressing it in the trait rework, but I figured I should also include it.
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