Beaten down, and can't get up again.

"VAs are too strong!" "Evokers are too weak!" "Nerf Kinu!"
A place for all your ideas and woes regarding game balance.
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Noxid
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Re: Beaten down, and can't get up again.

Post by Noxid » Sat Sep 15, 2018 10:03 pm

It seems like you are bringing up issues brought up in other threads Fern, the cause of many other issues too. That being fan tomes and the ease of which you can be tanky on this game without sacrificing much. How strong you can make a healer has little bearing on this topic though as you didn't really address the existing counters we have to healing. You say all you have to do is swap to screamer but let's break your example down. Item swap is 3m using the skill to cure silence is 1m and deals damage to yourself. At this point you have 3m to swap back or you now chose to heal with the likely inferior scaling tome. Even if you do this you have likely left yourself in an exposed position now allowing the enemy to reapply or deal damage etc. Gaining tempo in a fight is very important and even if you can cure the status effects that means you are generally falling behind in tempo.

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Re: Beaten down, and can't get up again.

Post by Spoops » Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:04 am

Nerserus wrote:
Spoops wrote:RP Should be first and foremost,
What does that have to do with balancing combat? Roleplay is roleplay, fights in-game are decided by variables - that's what we're debating.
You are right, thats what these forums are for, balancing combat, I mostly only said that as a gentle reminder that character integrity is still a thing to consider and that any match shouldn't be tacked up wholly to a team comp, a play that an individual makes shouldn't be under valued either, examples would include assassinating a high priority squishy target, only for them to rise up again because how dare you not focus all your attention onto the healer with 80% Phys DR on the other side of the map. Which is exactly what this thread covers.
Nerserus wrote:
Spoops wrote:but that doesn't stop tactics from rising up and being better than any other, thats meta and it always happens, balance is a constant effort.
But this is flawed logic - if our tactics were truly better than yours, we'd win every time - that's evidently not the case, we go 50/50 usually, beat one group lose to the other. And our tactics are seldom replicated by anyone but us. You can't say it's a "Meta" because it's what your enemies do - that's ridiculous, and reeks of biasness.
This is not just about your group either, groups with better players than your's could make up team comps with higher success rates until that gets nerfed and another rises, thats like meta 101 for any game with PvP in it, also basing your argument off of your groups sole win rate is going to be a flawed argument.

I've seen this tactic employed by several groups, and not just your's.
Nerserus wrote:I have to change my Hyattr's build because everyone has too much mobility, don't see me complaining that the game should change until I can use that same build in PvP. You can say "But RP" if you like, to which I reply; "But a jail cell." I get good or I get jailed. Maybe if you risked anything at all I might sympathize with that argument
But mobility creep is a real problem which was addressed in a previous thread, I think I understand what you're talking about here though, you wish to keep the integrity of the character, but you also desire to up your win rate as well, so you adjust your build accordingly, people do this all the time, usually for a different reason than being jailed though.

Now risk? Thats a touchy subject all on its own and is a purely contextual thing, it depends on the character and their muse, there are many things that come into play such as whether or not the player is casual, in the PvP scene more often than not, that is not the case.

Getting to the point here more often than not players are very open to risk should you ask them in the looc and you're not being a total asshat about it, there are countless times my characters have been injured if its just [me] that you refer to, so I don't really see the point of bringing that up.
Nerserus wrote:First of all - I've been playing since the days stats were based on growths; and you could choose exactly three metals other than iron for your weapons - magmic, galdric or arctic. In other words, when the game came out, if we're going to do a pointless measuring contest like that.
Then that's my bad for assuming that, and I apologize. Aside from that I never really saw your name before this, and had bunched you with the rest of the group.
Nerserus wrote:your viewpoints aren't any more valid due to the amount of time you played, even though you technically played less than I have. If you have a point - you have a point, if you don't, you don't. That's how it works.
Now this is only true to some degree, yes your points aren't dictated by the amount of time you have played, but they can be heavily swayed by experience and knowledge of the game itself, which I have a lot of in all my time playing.

I myself have no issue identifying any aspect of the game and why it works, more often than not down to the mechanical level. So really you have a point so long as its educated.
Nerserus wrote:No, the fact this is an RP game changes literally none of my points as we're talking purely about combat. And just because you tack on a passive aggressive comment at the end, doesn't change the fact you've contested none of my points. You can't just do this whole bleeding heart spiel where you're the "TRUE" rpers, and we're just a band of second class roleplayers who are somehow inferior and unable to dispute your opinions, because let me tell you something brotha - we're just as equal as you as players, both in opinion and in deserving a place in the game whether you like that or not.
Perhaps the whole reference to roleplay being the focus is undertones of backlash due to to my impression of your group in general, I haven't really been shown anything promising from most individuals in your group, if not for you being muted permanently due to extreme toxicity, one other member of your group showing up with offensive racial slurs in their description and literally in their alias, and among other things, the utter lack of roleplay and quality I've seen thus far.

The bar in this game is usually pretty low, but from the points brought up above as well as skirting around the rules in such a way to cause them to be changed and then gloat about it in the public chats, as well as the general air of arrogance permeating from wholly narative things such as emoting and even the way that some of your friend's posts are constructed, surely you can see why public opinion is low, but ya'll don't seem to care enough to do anything about it, why?

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Yark wrote: And I can sympathize with role-play being your first priority, and will not attempt to fault you for it. You've got your dark-themed, armor-clad warrior guy, and that's a pretty cool concept!
Literally anything can seem simple when boiled down to the base concept or appearence, yeah.
Yark wrote:However, you cannot expect to do well against everyone you come across. With that in mind, you can either choose to avoid confrontation with folks like us, or you can keep picking fights and complaining about the results.
Impossible I'm afraid as a guard player, you have to basically acknowledge everything that goes on so long as its in a public area, that is quite literally why I signed up for.

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Farkon wrote:RPing in fights takes far too long as it is, moreso in large group fights, real life should be first. Reduced healing will increase the fight duration even longer since now the reviviee will get downed again, then up again, then down again, etc. Say you burst down a enemy player for 500 damage while they have 200 hp, that's 300 damage that was ignored, now after a revive of 70hp the player will fight back a bit, then die again to maybe 200 damage, then get revived again effectively ignoring 130 extra damage. Healing reduction won't work to fix this.
Perhaps, more often than not players don't really have much issue RPing during eachother's turns I find, and if time is a constraint, RP is pushed aside to take place during another player's turn so that things may move on at a consistent pace with RP as well, for the most part most of the players in this game commit to the time sink that is any battle, or they avoid it for that day if they're busy, barring some cases most things CAN be rescheduled, just talk it out.
Farkon wrote:Also, it doesn't make RP sense that you just take less healing after being KOed, having reduced momentum to where you can only take one action does make RP sense since you would be disoriented.
I can see the logic in that, but balance usually has to shove that sort of thing aside, and the solution that I posted in the OP seems to be the best way to tackle it.
Farkon wrote:Impossible to do. You are either tanking/healing or Damage/healing. There's not enough stat points to go around for all of it.
I believe this was addressed in another post by Fern but no, no its not impossible at all, priest alone gets around 22 stat points, not counting the DEF and RES you get from sanctuary which at some times may as well be a permanent buff.

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Fern wrote:As for the SWA part- unsure why it's not listed, apparently it's intentional to account for SWA so I included it in my post. Might be the lack of room for text or something along the line.
It very much is intentional, its probably a bug relating to the display of the skills themselves since they are auto-generated and not hand written, at least I think thats the case
Fern wrote:150% Fan tomes are way too powerful indeed, unfortunately they're not necessary to achieve a damage dealer + healer + tanker combo. I believe they were already addressed in another thread anyway.
All it takes is a blacksand after fan tomes after nerfed, this much is true.
Fern wrote:Stat stacking is currently a huge part of the meta, and I'm not sure if there's plans for addressing it in the trait rework, but I figured I should also include it.
Accounting for Fugu Katsu food buffs with every stat item, enchant, skill, trait and talent in your repetoire, sometimes even weapon parts, now thats something that is basically second nature to me at this point.

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Noxid wrote:It seems like you are bringing up issues brought up in other threads Fern, the cause of many other issues too. That being fan tomes and the ease of which you can be tanky on this game without sacrificing much. How strong you can make a healer has little bearing on this topic though as you didn't really address the existing counters we have to healing. You say all you have to do is swap to screamer but let's break your example down. Item swap is 3m using the skill to cure silence is 1m and deals damage to yourself. At this point you have 3m to swap back or you now chose to heal with the likely inferior scaling tome. Even if you do this you have likely left yourself in an exposed position now allowing the enemy to reapply or deal damage etc. Gaining tempo in a fight is very important and even if you can cure the status effects that means you are generally falling behind in tempo.
Now here is the meat of what I was getting into before, first off you are very much correct, swapping to a screamer tome in the middle of combat to fight against silence is a very momentum inefficient thing and is currently the least efficient way to combat silence or even etacof, there are better ways currently that can snuff them out that also don't kill you in the process. (Hello Cleanse Potions)

Onto the main point, it is because of these slow battles with heavy spacing and healing and percentage DR that being able to prevent or purge statuses as or before they become a problem can often be more advantagious than disadvantagious, what is one turn of running away and purging or running to and preventing statuses in the grand scheme of your combined momentum as a team (Where in they can still act in your behest -temporarily), it only because so much an issue when AoE is involved which is not always the case in proper fights where people can account for their spacing properly, round 0 spacing is very bad currently and also needs to change, another thread though mind you.

Its because of how slow battles go that purging statuses are more often than not more valuable than just going in and beefing out damage on maybe one, or two guys.

===============

Leading up to the conclusion of this post, I still stand by my original point in the OP, none of the points brought up have really convinced me otherwise, infact they only further cement my opinion on the matter.

Badly Beaten should be changed to incur a 50% Healing penalty on the sufferer of the status, to prevent the devalue of death and the devalue of killing off one individual in any fight, I believe many people still agree with me on this.

These are my final thoughts and I will not be replying unless a reasonable conclusion is made by dev, thank you.

Yark
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Re: Beaten down, and can't get up again.

Post by Yark » Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:35 am

Sounds like you'd be enjoying the game more if you didn't have guard obligations, and therefore did not have to subject yourself to the frustration that can come with fighting other players. PvP isn't everyone's cup of tea.

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Sawrock
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Re: Beaten down, and can't get up again.

Post by Sawrock » Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:09 pm

Yark wrote:Sounds like you'd be enjoying the game more if you didn't have guard obligations, and therefore did not have to subject yourself to the frustration that can come with fighting other players. PvP isn't everyone's cup of tea.
That's one of the many points he made, not considering that he doesn't seem to be frustrated. He was addressing each issue point-by-point.
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Kensaii
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Re: Beaten down, and can't get up again.

Post by Kensaii » Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:42 pm

Yark wrote:Sounds like you'd be enjoying the game more if you didn't have guard obligations, and therefore did not have to subject yourself to the frustration that can come with fighting other players. PvP isn't everyone's cup of tea.
Sounds like noone wants to pvp with you since you come up with idiotic reasons why you should flee with downed players or how ppl aren't allowed to come into your guildhouse despite you announcing where you're at.

Not to mention how there's only like 2 peeps in your guild that are actually fun to with against (that monk healer bitch that kills themselves and the fire sword guy), otherwise it's just cheese builds you idiots copy off of.

This new mechanic will prevent some of your cheese so get mad more.

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Re: Beaten down, and can't get up again.

Post by Yark » Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:33 pm

Actually the entire server wants to PvP with us because we're fun and interesting. Though I wish you'd said that to us when you came into voice, instead of being awkwardly silent.

Womp womp.

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Re: Beaten down, and can't get up again.

Post by Grandpa » Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:29 pm

Yark wrote:Actually the entire server wants to PvP with us because we're fun and interesting. Though I wish you'd said that to us when you came into voice, instead of being awkwardly silent.

Womp womp.
Not to derail or detract from this thread, but you think far too highly of yourself if you think that is why everyone wants to PVP with you.
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Kensaii
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Re: Beaten down, and can't get up again.

Post by Kensaii » Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:14 am

Grandpa wrote:
Yark wrote:Actually the entire server wants to PvP with us because we're fun and interesting. Though I wish you'd said that to us when you came into voice, instead of being awkwardly silent.

Womp womp.
Not to derail or detract from this thread, but you think far too highly of yourself if you think that is why everyone wants to PVP with you.

NO joke, these guys are losers and shit.

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Re: Beaten down, and can't get up again.

Post by WaifuApple » Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:43 am

please calm down kensaii.
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Re: Beaten down, and can't get up again.

Post by Snake » Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:15 am

Can we have this thread deleted and another one made solely for the purpose of re-focusing this shit fest back to the balance-fu requested?
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