Gigantys

"VAs are too strong!" "Evokers are too weak!" "Nerf Kinu!"
A place for all your ideas and woes regarding game balance.
User avatar
Lonestar
Frequent Poster
Frequent Poster
Posts: 193
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2016 6:51 pm

Gigantys

Post by Lonestar » Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:52 am

Gigantys is one of the most, if not the most less used Boss Drop weapon out of all of the existant one, and there's a couple of fair reasons why. The weapon itself provides more drawbacks than benefits, and the constant STR dump you have to deal with to even wield the weapon without being over your Battle Weight is absurd when combined to the weapon already providing minus Hit, which is heavily contradictory to their last ability, so here's a few changes that would make the weapon a bit better.

Decreases Hit by Weight. > Decreases hit by weapon's Weight/2 (Up to a maximum of 20 or 30) OR Removal of this part.

There's absolutely no actual reason to complete cuck the users hit just because the weapon's heavy and force them to pair their combo with Hexer always due to Plisfa's Masochism. It feels heavily limiting or hitting Evasion even on tanks with minimum evade.

Attacks cost 4M but deal bonus damage equal to Weight and can Guard Break. > Momentum cost changed to 3M, bonus damage equal to half of the weapon's Weight, Guard Break changed to ignore Parry skills.

With the basic attack costing 4M, someone without Fleur would only manage to use the basic hit once per turn, even with a crit. With Fleur, it would be twice per turn, but the weapon is not favorable to criting as it has 0% base chance plus the modifiers to add more weight tends to remove crit, which is why even in someone with only one Crit Evade stat (Be it LUC or FAI), you're going to have a hard time critting them.

So to balance the change of basic attacks to 3M, the bonus damage gained from Weight would be halved, as it would be too abusable and heavily damaging on someone who lacks defenses, even though they wouldn't have any issue dodging their strikes without Plisfa. The change from Guard Break to Ignoring Parry is something that makes more sense to me, as it would be very hard to parry a heavy and large sword such as Gigantys, and Guard Break feels heavily situational for a status that is easily break with a knockdown.

Other than that, I believe another cool interaction would have the bonus to weight also apply to autohits, but I'm not sure how abusable would that be. (Looking at you, Demon Hunter.)

Those are my opinion on the weapon, if you have any other ideas, make sure to leave a comment and discuss what would be a good change for Gigantys.

Also, for the love of god, please change the weapon's type from Medium to Large.
Image

Joseph Jostar
Talkative Poster
Talkative Poster
Posts: 220
Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2014 5:01 pm

Re: Gigantys

Post by Joseph Jostar » Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:32 pm

i quite like the difficulty in using it more than once per round personally. we don't need to be swinging the gigantic bonesword around like a rapier, it just needs to have some more oomph when you actually do manage to hit with it, considering the difficulty in doing so outside of a specific skill or using it vs a guarding opponent.

the idea seems to be a trade-off between how difficult you want it to be to hit with this sword vs a damage reward for taking on that difficulty, but when all things are said and done the 1:1 accuracy to bonus damage tradeoff just doesn't do it. it can already be difficult to hit people as is if they want to dodge, but on top of the hit>damage tradeoff you're also trading off +hit modifiers for +weight ones and it often doesn't work out for you. with just the damage as it is. being able to guard break is nice, but noone's ever going to need to guard if you can't hit them (excluding team fights) so i do like the anti-parry idea. maybe compare their % chance to parry to the weapon's W and ignore parries if it's higher?

i'd like to see a more thematic change to it, the idea of 'throwing your weight around'. like maybe it could have a weight-based autohit skill where you slam it into the ground and lower the evade of those nearby on top of damaging them (if it's 4M it can't even be used to hit them in the same round, giving them the chance to back off and try something else). or another idea is rolling a chance to knockdown (or lowering evade) on miss, based on weight (sounds strong, but if you're missing a gigantys attack you just blew 4M on zero damage).

there's also been some interesting suggestions for greatsword type traits that would probably help gigantys hit a more usable spot

User avatar
Snake
Posted to Death
Posted to Death
Posts: 2387
Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2015 10:14 pm
Location: Motherbase - Main Office

Re: Gigantys

Post by Snake » Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:03 pm

To be honest, it doesn't hit heavy enough. But that's to blame the scaling.

This sword is not a Katana, so it can afford having a higher scaling in my balance view makes it fair enough. Katanas can and will critically hit waaay heavier than this even if you overtone the weapon to become a tank-burster. And, it's one pretty damn rare greatsword on top of all. I think it should get the Corvis Cannon treatment at least.

Why don't we just throw a 115% STR scaling on that baby and see what happens? Or maybe make it inflict Guard Break for 2 rounds regardless if the enemy is guarding or not. Just hitting is already a pretty big challenge.
"Show me what you've got, Snake!"
Image
Image ~ Dev, 08/16/2016.

User avatar
Lonestar
Frequent Poster
Frequent Poster
Posts: 193
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2016 6:51 pm

Re: Gigantys

Post by Lonestar » Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:16 pm

I particularly don't like the whole 4M cost because even with the bonus damage, you'll still deal more damage with any other weapon for 3M cost that can be extended to two or three attacks depending on your class. Not to mention the bonus damage is not any sort of irresistible, separated instance of damage, it's just added to the total, which means any tank out there can simply tank it out, even more if they have slash resist. Hence why I'd prefer lowering it to the traditional 3M rather than keeping it high, that way someone could do two basic attacks without the need of Fleur.

Not to mention that, during my tests, the bonus damage only applies to THAT basic attack, which means it wouldn't apply to anything outside of it, even skill that uses basic attack.

As for Kunai's suggestion, just slapping an increased scaling wouldn't solve the weapon's problem, so I suggest taking another read at the original post.
Image

User avatar
PantherPrincess
Talkative Poster
Talkative Poster
Posts: 225
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2014 7:21 am

Re: Gigantys

Post by PantherPrincess » Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:45 pm

I'm all for these changes. I rarely see this weapon used if not at all because of how many drawbacks you have to deal with and even then it's limited to things like Lonestar said Hexer or being a Dullahan or massive STR dumping and forgetting about hit altogether and going the autohit route. It's just not ideal to have a sword cost 4M per strike when it has trouble hitting to begin with and even then the damage is far from obnoxious. Just because a weapon is heavy doesn't mean it should cost 4M to basic attack which pertains to things like heavy damage skills that are utterly powerful and need that kind of fencing. I for one totally agree with these changes. It would open a few windows for this weapon as it's currently sitting in most people's banks or raremetal material.
Image

User avatar
Snake
Posted to Death
Posted to Death
Posts: 2387
Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2015 10:14 pm
Location: Motherbase - Main Office

Re: Gigantys

Post by Snake » Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:39 am

I mean. That can be affordable. The 4M gimmick can still stay there, but become a two-part instead of a constant passive so the sword falls in the line of usability.

I just came up with a new recipeh: So, the weapon's second UL effect should be removed and turned into a skill that costs 1M, called 'Heavy Shot', 'Rexquake's Bite' or something fancier. It will still gain Weight based on UL.
"Heavy Shot" (1M, 5 FP) - Your next basic attack with Gigantys will increase Critical equal to Weight, decrease Hit equal to Weight/2, and inflict an On-Hit effect that does unresistable Blunt magic damage equal to Weight * 2. If done against somebody who is Guarding, it will Guard Break them before applying the on-hit damage.
This is assuming scaling won't be touched, of course.
"Show me what you've got, Snake!"
Image
Image ~ Dev, 08/16/2016.

Joseph Jostar
Talkative Poster
Talkative Poster
Posts: 220
Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2014 5:01 pm

Re: Gigantys

Post by Joseph Jostar » Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:52 am

i'd just rather gigantys not lose its identity as the big beefy boi of greatswords, and i feel like there's alternatives to explore that aren't just 'make it the same as every other 3m weapon but it guard breaks'. for example, you could buff the damage bonus a bit, have it reduce crit instead of hit, and simply have it greatly increase the penalty for being over-weight (effectively keeping the old hit penalty or worse if you don't build for however heavy you make it).

various ideas off the top of my head, random spitballing:
- lowering scaling but having weight increase scaling instead of damage
- heavy swing ignoring a bit of the enemy's def based on gigantys' weight
- on hit: unresistable slash damage that ignores def, based on gigantys' weight
- successful hits inflicting knockdown or evasion penalties

actually, here's one i think is pretty interesting:
you could go with the concept of it being so large you have to leave the tile you're in to dodge it, ie
- on miss: enemy is forced to move out of the way. if they're immobilized or aren't moved somehow it automatically hits

i particularly liked the parry-breaker idea, but that'd be kind of much on a 3M attack, don't you think? if there can be a way for it to be hard to use, but really hit HARD when it does hit, i think gigantys would be in a good place. not every weapon has to be universally usable

User avatar
Chaos
GM
GM
Posts: 969
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 9:35 pm
Location: nope

Re: Gigantys

Post by Chaos » Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:24 am

The main issue with Gigantys is how brutal the 'Decrease accuracy by weight' penalty really is. In any sort of meta where Evade holds weight, Gigantys is absolutely useless. The bonus damage is very much dead weight with the accuracy making it impossible to land a hit without forcing a very gimmicky build, especially if Gigantys (inevitably) drives your BW over the limit and nerfs your hit even further.

Off the top of my head, I'd do the following to Gigantys to get it back on track:

1. Remove the '-(Weight) Accuracy' effect.
2. Make any attack performed with Gigantys ignore the opponent's Parry skills if (Gigantys' total Weight > Opponent's Total STR).
3. Have Guard Break apply before damage is calculated.
4. Make Gigantys a Large weapon.

A dumb idea, as well:

-Replace the 4M attack's Bonus Damage with 'When calculating Damage, subtract (Weight/2) from the opponent's Physical Resistance.'
Image
[12:53:15 AM] Chaos: don't hit dyst
[12:53:18 AM] Chaos: that's cruelty to animals
[12:53:20 AM] Chaos: you have to shoot it
[12:53:20 AM] Dystopia: ye

User avatar
Neus
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 5345
Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2014 12:53 pm

Re: Gigantys

Post by Neus » Thu Feb 14, 2019 12:27 pm

I could see attacks/skills that can Guard Break ignoring parry effects, at least.

User avatar
Spoops
Posted to Death
Posted to Death
Posts: 2582
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:25 am
Location: Somewhere

Re: Gigantys

Post by Spoops » Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:08 pm

I'm all for that idea, that gives further reason to use Lance De Lion over Eclair Lacroix, and good reason to use Reaper Scythe as well.

Post Reply