I'm bringing this thread up only now due to Firebird changes around the corner but currently the thing that enables them the most is the usage of this skill with ignite power as well, given the spammability of Blazing Cyclone Spear and how effective it is at stacking both ignite power and doing damage I feel like this skill faces a lot of scrutiny currently.
It is undeniable just how good this skill is, the very wide AoE that you can throw onto any tile in 5 range (effectively making it 9 range.) is extremely hard to avoid pretty much ever, you cannot reliably kite that back with any proper use of mobility skills barring like, Sidecut with a good chunk of flottement stacks.
The skill does somewhat low damage to an individual which is arguably true, but I think being able to throw the skill a very far range and then pull enemies to a controllable location is also very good, in one example you can use this one skill to completely deny a duelist or boxer's approach while also doing damage, among many other scenarios.
Onto the meat of the thread however I have some major problems with the following elemental variants of the skill:
-Blazing Cyclone Spear
-Freezing Cyclone Spear
The latter is not nearly as big an issue as the former, but both enable the usage of Firebird's Ignite Power to a very unhealthy degree, what would normally take a couple of actions worth of setup from any other skill, Cyclone Spear does in 1 single use, instantly generating 37 cinder or ice tiles to use if you use it in a close proximity, which is more than any non-trap skill can produce. (Or a perfectly placed Heaven kick I suppose)
Blazing Cyclone Spear in specific appears to be a problem because it generates cinder tiles and then pulls enemies through them (effectively giving the attack a +50% fire ATK scaling, or +100% if you are slower than your opponent.), this can be fixed by simply making the pull happen before the cinder tiles are generated.
Lastly the range of Cyclone Spear is simply just too much, how far you can throw the spear or how big the Circle AoE need either to be adjusted drastically.
I'd love for more discussion regarding this skill, I'm not sure exactly on what needs to be done, my problems lie in how far ranged it is, and the cinder pull on Blazing's variant.
I'd prefer if the following happened instead, assuming a change is necessary:
-Cyclone Spear now knocks people airborne before Cinder ticks can go off (like the nerf that had been applied to Explosion from Mage a long while ago)
-The range on Cyclone Spear drops from 5 to 3 (or 2)
I've admittedly never been a fan of just gutting skills and I tend to like the more creative adjustments the most. With these changes, tile effects would no longer tick on Cyclone Spear because enemies would be sent airborne before that could happen, it loses its sniping capability and the ability to send people up would provide more synergy with other classes, specially Firebird, and thus open up more build diversity for both PVE and PVP. Essentially killing a bunch of birds with one stone. Pun completely intended.
EDIT: By range, I mean the amount of tiles you can target with Cyclone Spear, not the AOE size.
Fern's suggestion looks the most reasonable here to be honest, in a era everyone uses floittment setting up with a Cyclone for a follow-up is pretty unlikely. I not only went against people that solemnly did spam Blazing Cyclones but they also used the double-tick bug to get the max out of it, still didn't drop from green before i could end the fight and no, i don't have fire res.
Claret vastly outclasses Ignite power, Ignite Power just evens the playfield to autohitters, while Claret gives out more AND takes advantage of criticals. Sure there can be argument of a FB that is on-hit but eh.
Spears is still vastly underpicked compared to Sword, the Ignite Power and Cyclone allowing it to happen is literally why spear is even being a thing nowadays.
Fern post_id=38461 time=1575780868 user_id=55 Wrote:I'd prefer if the following happened instead, assuming a change is necessary:
-Cyclone Spear now knocks people airborne before Cinder ticks can go off (like the nerf that had been applied to Explosion from Mage a long while ago)
-The range on Cyclone Spear drops from 5 to 3 (or 2)
I've admittedly never been a fan of just gutting skills and I tend to like the more creative adjustments the most. With these changes, tile effects would no longer tick on Cyclone Spear because enemies would be sent airborne before that could happen, it loses its sniping capability and the ability to send people up would provide more synergy with other classes, specially Firebird, and thus open up more build diversity for both PVE and PVP. Essentially killing a bunch of birds with one stone. Pun completely intended.
EDIT: By range, I mean the amount of tiles you can target with Cyclone Spear, not the AOE size.
By introducing the airborne mechanic you do give the skill a bit more than just a creative adjustment, you give it the ability to pair into Soaring Spear, Typhur, bellowing stag etc. which might be a bit strong considering its AoE size, as per my last post you could probably just do the following and it'd be fine:
Quote: this can be fixed by simply making the pull happen before the cinder tiles are generated.
Which effectively achieves the same thing but doesn't have an airborne sort of deal to it, and though I like synergy, Cyclone Spear is just very very large as an AoE.
Mewni post_id=38462 time=1575783648 user_id=2075 Wrote:Fern's suggestion looks the most reasonable here to be honest, in a era everyone uses floittment setting up with a Cyclone for a follow-up is pretty unlikely. I not only went against people that solemnly did spam Blazing Cyclones but they also used the double-tick bug to get the max out of it, still didn't drop from green before i could end the fight and no, i don't have fire res.
Claret vastly outclasses Ignite power, Ignite Power just evens the playfield to autohitters, while Claret gives out more AND takes advantage of criticals. Sure there can be argument of a FB that is on-hit but eh.
Spears is still vastly underpicked compared to Sword, the Ignite Power and Cyclone allowing it to happen is literally why spear is even being a thing nowadays.
Ignite Power is very much better than Claret Call, or even just the same, but claret call contributes only to Ghost Skills and Basic Attacks, while Ignite power provides more of a power bonus when stacked to full (+44 SWA compared to 40 claret call) and contributes to any skill in the game that runs off of SWA, which synergizes well with pretty much every class in the game except maybe summoner.
While Claret Call gives a flat +40 damage, thats still just +40 damage unless you use it on a basic attack which crits, Ignite Power provides up to +44 SWA which can quickly turn into +88 damage on a Lance De Lion, +122 Damage on an Eclair Lacroix, and still deal roughly the same amount on a basic attack as a max stacked claret call. (+44 SWA is just +44 damage lol)
I fail to see how Claret vastly outclasses ignite power when compared alone, as they're giving roughly the same amount of damage, except Ignite Power's mod will be further enhanced by larger hitting autohits, like Falcon Strike or LDL or Eclair Lacroix or Kadouha etc.
If any change had to happen I'd prefer if the changes were kept to the elemental versions that are a problem.
Blazing Cyclone Spear offers a ton for Firebird especially.
It's a large AoE attack with good range that pulls and when paired with Cinders, they immediately take Cinder damage due to said pull (and likely another one from standing it in at the end of a Round) as well as provide a potentially chunky SWA bonus depending on where you drop it.
Freezing Cyclone Spear is also a little worrying for most of the same reasons but obviously without the tile based damage.
If I had to make a suggestion, I'd say make the Blazing (and perhaps Freezing) versions of the skill not be able to pull and place less tiles down (as in the tile placing radius is 1 shorter than the AoE itself).
I like Sly's suggestion here, where the tile coverage is less than the AoE itself, if thats possible to implement I think that'd be the best way to do it, without nerfing the un-impacted version of the skill itself.
Erm...44 Swa if you are just concentrating in getting the most out of it right? I use it for a long time now and at most i get 36 at the best situations because standing there just perfectly covering your absolute surroundings with fire without being moved from it is pretty much..a big rarity.
I never saw it as a issue, and still doesn't and i fight spammers all the time. With Falcon Strike receiving a nerf to avoid spamming and feathers finally coming to be useful, its very..odd there is this obsession in taking down a few pegs what even makes the build work for starters.
If the range drops at all, making it more useful for the other stuff FB does is the least IMO, or else the class will just die.
I'm honestly fine with Blazing Cyclone putting down less tiles/losing the pull while retaining its AoE; as it stands it's an incredibly potent space control tool against builds that rely on basic movement. Though I personally don't think Freezing Cyclone needs any adjustments at the moment though and if it did, I'd much prefer something more thematic rather than a flat nerf to the tile creation.
As for the Airborne idea, I'd think it's also a nice and fun solution that promotes creativity. But I personally feel like the airborne aspect should be restricted in some way instead of it being a solution to Blazing's pull; perhaps it can be given to raging and/or default cyclone spear to enemies within two range of where it lands?
Could lower its SWA scaling significantly too, I see it more as an utility AoE than a damage one. And to slap a bandaid better on the 'spam' clause, a 2 round cooldown.