Its no surprise that currently in the new turn order system that dodge is left kind of weak, the main benefit of Celerity before was that you moved faster than tanks did which was important in assuring your survival as a whole, this is not the case anymore really for a lot of reasons, mostly in that if you're not first in the turn order, your Celerity is practically useless right now.
You can make the argument that dodge is a lesser, more risky DR with the higher reward being that you can often times dodge basic attacks with, and while this is important in keeping things such as Narcus in check, it fails in the current team scenarios given the presence of basic attackers is at an all time low, and magic is VERY strong. As with this most dodgies end up turning towards Cobra Stance's Snake Dancer for added protection vs mages, and it functions as excessive protection as mages actually often struggle vs Cobra, and its really unfair in a lot of cases.
I think maybe a raw numbers buff to Evasion is perhaps in order, we learned from Verglas' ice point guard that a larger evasion number is not the end of the world, and with initiative's current state as a stat, Celerity/Dodge characters REALLY need some hard number tweaks to at least make them more viable feeling, a drastic evasion tweak while nipping at Cobra's Snake Dancer would probably be perfect.
A lot of people feel as though evasion cannot be used by classes that aren't a select few, its not entirely wrong to think that as currently the kings of dodge are the only ones using it.
One last thing, knockdown is simply too good of a counter to Evasion, I'm not going to argue evasion ignoring attacks as that are what they are supposed to be good versus (as such they have lower damage or restrictions currently.) So I think that Knockdown versus Evasion should also be looked at.
TL;DR: Celerity as a stat is not overly powerful given the initiative changes, and may need some number/usage buffs to make up for it currently.
Anyways, heres some ideas to consider:
--Knockdown no longer removes the ability to proc evasion, instead it HALVES Evasion's DR. (Quick Rise from Rogue would make you completely ignore knockdown's evasion penalty)
Reason: Knockdown already removes a portion of your evade, making it easier not to trigger evasion already, in an organized team effort, you can burst down a dodgy in so little time that they REALLY need this lifeline. Without it they will easily perish.
I want to note that the knockdown change is the least that should be considered potentially, this would easily circumvent a lot of issues dodgies have in team fights currently, but I would also consider:
1) Increasing Evasion's DR baseline from 30/15% to 40/25%, this would come along with a nerf to Cobra's Snake Dancer, giving it only 1 charge instead of 2, as well as slightly changing Ice Point Guard, making it grant 10% Evasion DR instead of 15%.
2) Giving evasion DR increasing effects to other classes, but not allowing them to stack, such as:
-Rogue's "Evasion" skill increasing its DR by 3/6/9/12/15%
-Ranger's Light Armor Mastery increasing Evasion DR by 3/6/9/12/15%
-New Kensei Skill that increases Evasion's DR, currently they are a high DPS class with absolutely no staying power in a fight, they, like verglas did once could definitely use better ways to stay in a fight.
I like option two a lot. It's an interesting solution to the problem.
Option two kinda feels liiike, concentrating evasion ability in the classes that are supposed to be able to evade even more than before. I don't think this'll change evasion's viability in general, but more boost those classes viability. I don't think that's a bad thing necessarily though?
but tbh, I'd like to see a more global revamp to evasion; and not just in increasing DR. Increasing the Evasion DR just means that it'll be more important to find ways to bypass evasion since they'll start approaching tank-ish levels of DR(almost). I think it'd be nice to see more effects that proc on Evasion, rather than just evade, and skills that exist already should be more effective on evasion. I think Flottement, something that's fallen out of the meta in some people's eyes, should reduce the damage you take from an Evasion!'d attack by 50%, once per round, kinda like a pseudo-cobra. I think MA's Evasive strike should get a greater range, and should take an effect when proccing Evasion. Rogue's Evasion definitely needs to see a revamp in this system, but I'm not really sure what it should be. I think that a skill similar to what the engineer has for evading attacks and having your bots shoot back would be good to have as an archer skill; though if it seems like too much, it might be good to make it a handgun-exclusive skill for magic gunners, since those are meant to be the 'fastest' of shooty boyz. I think any sort of 'on evade' effect proccing on evasion would be great, along with a few other things being added, because it would keep evasion feeling different from just stacking up DR. Like I mentioned before, of course, this really needs to be something kinda expansive, though, to give at the very least most classes a way to build evasion; though I think it's understandable if stuff like arb or BK doesn't support evasion.
Light armorr, might be in need of examination for some changes, since right now it doesn't really get used to my knowledge? Getting 15% DR in exchange for all those stats you invested tends to just not feel worth, so it's usually only used for whatever special effect it has on a tanky build, or if it's in-fighter gi, since in-fighter gi gets bonus evasion DR. even then, I think people only really think of the option for mainclass ranger, since they want to take advantage of the innate.
That's my two or three cents. I think this is a great post that addresses something important to a lot of people.
These changes look good on the surface level, but I am worried the dr stacking might make dodgetanking a whole lot more viable. As it stands, it can be relatively easy to increase your DR past what's attainable /natty/. I can't think of many sleek ways to combat this, but would like to see the changes not overly benefit the most viable forms of dodging.
While some kind of buff is clearly needed for dodge strategies, and buffing Evasion DR may very well be the answer, I can't help but feel it's not a good change overall. I've said this before, but evasion is just tanking with extra steps. Instead of just having straightforward DR from your defense and resistance, you have conditional DR that only triggers if you overcome a hit check.
Truthfully, I think evasion would need to be changed to something else entirely, because it makes dodge vs tanking and cel, def, and res feel like superficial stats. It just feels like pick your flavor for triggering DRs, just one is shittier than the other but as compensation you can ignore basic attacks. The problem is once the DR that comes with ignoring basic attacks is consistently higher than what you get from using def/res then it becomes strictly better which is sort of what Crix was touching at.
I'm down for the idea of knockdown not being as much of a cripple for dodge, but as it goes right now, the other suggestions here seem more aimed at turning this into a situation where there are two real options: Those who tank, and those who... tank, except evasively. Dodging and tanking, of course, should be viable... but they both shouldn't do similar things but with different conditions. At that point you're just going to end up in a situation where the idea of these things being "balanced" are them almost seeming like the same thing entirely, which brings into question identity.
(07-08-2020, 02:08 AM)Maksimum_Fire Wrote: [ -> ]Option two kinda feels liiike, concentrating evasion ability in the classes that are supposed to be able to evade even more than before. I don't think this'll change evasion's viability in general, but more boost those classes viability. I don't think that's a bad thing necessarily though?
but tbh, I'd like to see a more global revamp to evasion; and not just in increasing DR. Increasing the Evasion DR just means that it'll be more important to find ways to bypass evasion since they'll start approaching tank-ish levels of DR(almost). I think it'd be nice to see more effects that proc on Evasion, rather than just evade, and skills that exist already should be more effective on evasion. I think Flottement, something that's fallen out of the meta in some people's eyes, should reduce the damage you take from an Evasion!'d attack by 50%, once per round, kinda like a pseudo-cobra. I think MA's Evasive strike should get a greater range, and should take an effect when proccing Evasion. Rogue's Evasion definitely needs to see a revamp in this system, but I'm not really sure what it should be. I think that a skill similar to what the engineer has for evading attacks and having your bots shoot back would be good to have as an archer skill; though if it seems like too much, it might be good to make it a handgun-exclusive skill for magic gunners, since those are meant to be the 'fastest' of shooty boyz. I think any sort of 'on evade' effect proccing on evasion would be great, along with a few other things being added, because it would keep evasion feeling different from just stacking up DR. Like I mentioned before, of course, this really needs to be something kinda expansive, though, to give at the very least most classes a way to build evasion; though I think it's understandable if stuff like arb or BK doesn't support evasion.
Light armorr, might be in need of examination for some changes, since right now it doesn't really get used to my knowledge? Getting 15% DR in exchange for all those stats you invested tends to just not feel worth, so it's usually only used for whatever special effect it has on a tanky build, or if it's in-fighter gi, since in-fighter gi gets bonus evasion DR. even then, I think people only really think of the option for mainclass ranger, since they want to take advantage of the innate.
That's my two or three cents. I think this is a great post that addresses something important to a lot of people.
I agree that it sorta concentrates the problem into a select few classes, given what was stated earlier if you just bump Evasion's global DR by a ton, you may run into the problem where people just run CEL DEF RES and hope they trigger evasion through the usage of miragewalk and stuff, it may not happen to higher hit builds but it will be frustrating in general. The 2nd option sort of avoids this by concentrating Evasion DR into classes that suit it and don't have substantial staying power/DRs already (Imagine say Demon Hunter/Ghost/Bonder getting this change too). I think this is the safest option of course.
What you mentioned is something I would like to bring up, changing the new "On Evade" effects like Brain Freeze/Evoke Retaliation/etc. into on-evasion or evade effects is...very encouraging to dodgies, it separates how they play from their tanky counterpart pretty well and will encourage more people to play dodgy. As such they may want to invest into classes that actually benefit them like Kensei or Monk or Verglas etc.
Evasive strike triggering on regular evade is probably more than fine, it actually does do a pretty decent chunk of damage and can trigger alongside Riposte as well, so I have very little issue with that, also not to mention both Verglas and Boxer have on-evade effects that could be changed to on-evasion as well.
Light armor doesn't feel very worth it at all either I agree with that, I wouldn't mind seeing its viability be bumped, as infighter gi is the only light armor that feels good for dodgies at the current moment.
Currently I feel that a very good way to encourage and reward dodgy play is to give them more damage tools to work with, this may set them into a more 'cannon' like role than their tankier counterparts might, I know for a fact that even if I die early, I feel satisfied with making a bigger impact than barely any at all.
(07-08-2020, 02:36 AM)FatherCrixius Wrote: [ -> ]These changes look good on the surface level, but I am worried the dr stacking might make dodgetanking a whole lot more viable. As it stands, it can be relatively easy to increase your DR past what's attainable /natty/. I can't think of many sleek ways to combat this, but would like to see the changes not overly benefit the most viable forms of dodging.
I'm a bit worried about that as well, I wanted to suggest a system in my post that would increase or decrease evasion DR based on your actual hit rate since the people running dodge-tank generally do so without any luck, but ultimately anyone with decent hit, even 50 something skill and no luck, shouldn't have too many troubles vs these folk.
That said, if it is a worry, you could have Evasion DR decreased by a 'glancing' system instead, where it would decrease the DR based on how much greater your hit chance is on that person. (So if you had a 50% chance to hit that miragewalk full tank boxer, you would decrease their evasion DR subsequently by half)
(07-08-2020, 03:17 AM)Perdition Wrote: [ -> ]While some kind of buff is clearly needed for dodge strategies, and buffing Evasion DR may very well be the answer, I can't help but feel it's not a good change overall. I've said this before, but evasion is just tanking with extra steps. Instead of just having straightforward DR from your defense and resistance, you have conditional DR that only triggers if you overcome a hit check.
Truthfully, I think evasion would need to be changed to something else entirely, because it makes dodge vs tanking and cel, def, and res feel like superficial stats. It just feels like pick your flavor for triggering DRs, just one is shittier than the other but as compensation you can ignore basic attacks. The problem is once the DR that comes with ignoring basic attacks is consistently higher than what you get from using def/res then it becomes strictly better which is sort of what Crix was touching at.
I do think buffing numbers currently is the only answer we have available to us. Its really just been decided that there's really no other way, its a turn based strategy game, and you can't just avoid hits based on a speed stat or having access to mobility skills. You are going to get hit no matter what and subsequently you'll die much faster than Hexer Harry sitting over on his own with 60% Phys and Mag DR, Crit immunity and just as much damage as anyone else.
If you open up avenues of approach for dodgies like with introducing evade/evasion-specific skills, at the very least you're opening up new playstyles for dodge characters, even Verglas has a difference for both dodge and tank at the current moment.
The ability to dodge basic attacks ALWAYS has to be considered when buffing dodge as well, it is effectively a 100% DR vs them when it triggers, and currently the system for basic attacks favors dodge, unless you are running a lot of hit buffs.
Addendum:
If you were to introduce more damage tools to dodgy characters, I would do so by causing on-evade skills to trigger on-evasion as well, with the exception of Evasive Strike I feel. Brain Freeze, Security System and Krahenflugel are all strong enough effects to feel rewarding, Evoke Retaliation however is not, I would probably make Evoke Retaliation stack when triggered, like up to a cap.
Agreed on knockdown not completely removing all Evasion DR, to be honest. Knockdown has become a fairly common status effect, and people can easily use autohits as well. It feels incredibly disappointing when you put together enough evade to trigger Evasion against just about anyone, only to then find out that it did nothing because they can just hit you with a knockdown (Domino Resonate, Pulling Shot, custom tomes, Typhur sometimes, etc) and you don't even get the 30% damage reduction you should from it afterwards, especially when you then remember that you could have put together 40 Defense and Resistance in place of all the Celerity and Luck needed to ensure you dodge basic attacks.
In fact, here's what normally happens when, for example, a Kensei tries to basic attack an evasive build, in my experience:
1. Kensei picks Sidecut
2. If Kensei sees 70-80+% success rate, confirm attack
3. If Kensei sees that hit rate is too low, cancel and swap to Kagekiri or any other skill that can hit the opponent
The only difference in this scenario between a defensive or evasive character is that if they can knock down, they can remove the chance of an evasive character having any defenses to begin with.
Your best option if you absolutely want to run classes without any methods to improve damage reduction as an evasive character is to somehow painstakingly add Defense and Resistance on top of all the other stats you needed, and having a character add points to almost every stat in the game generally isn't considered the best idea, so it commonly only works with the ones that didn't need many stats to begin with.
As far as the other options... Well, despite me wanting to be able to use every class well as an evasive character as well as a defensive one, I do understand that doing that by globally increasing damage reduction can cause some issues. Perhaps the "glancing blow" idea mentioned earlier in this thread could help with that? So you'd get less DR from Evasion if you only got it to trigger by luck, and you'd get a little bit more if you dodged because they didn't have much of a chance to hit you anyways, or something similar.
Despite that, I think the second option is likely to work better for most people in general - providing specific tools in each class that would allow for the ability to use classes for evading better, either by adjusting the existing ones (allowing them to trigger on Evasion as well as evading a basic attack, or powering them up to give extra DR, or anything else) or by adding new ones to any class that needs them.
I think I'd agree that buffing the numbers is the only option that there is. Ultimately it'll be finding the line where the DR isn't overwhelming when combined with the fact that you can ignore an entire mechanic (basic attacking).
I think Spo is on the money with fleshing out on-evade mechanics to work on triggering on evasion as well. At the very least it would make playing evasion strategies -feel- better. Basic attacking is exceedingly less popular as time goes on it seems, so not being able to proc certain passives feels really bad.
Definitely option #2. I'd be satisfied with option #1, but having to invest some skill points to increase your Evasion! DR is a nice drawback.