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Considering smoke got changed from being a way to block LOS to a small hit debuff, spellthief smoke wall could use a buff. I would propose it either gain a much larger size, perhaps being three times as thick and a few tiles longer to make it more likely that someone ends up in a tile when attacking considering the huge amount of mobility available or make it specifically block vision like the tactician earth spell, thought that'd require making it a different tile type probably. Or make it 1-2m and less focus. Right now, it just doesn't do anything and I'd rather spellthief have some of its smoke and mirrors utility added back in rather than just being a build-a-buff mage with distortion for free.

A 2 range circle shape around the Spellthief, with the tile directly under them empty so they don't get debuffed. +/- increases the range, and a cooldown of 3 rounds. That's all the skill needs.

(also yes what jam said, might also need to have its hit debuff toned down)

Quote: a small hit debuff

Quote:it just doesn't do anything

While I don't necessarily disagree with Smoke Screen buffs, these two phrases are straight up lies.



Minus fifty hit is very, very good and there's no feasible way you can tell me otherwise. Smoke Screen is a threat that is only countered by Cyclone Spear or Air Pressure or Evasion ignoring moves OR having enough raw hit on the ST to IGNORE -50 HIT AGAINST AN EVADE BUILD. If an ST puts this under you, you're going to have to move.

(08-04-2022, 01:09 PM)JamOfBoy Wrote: [ -> ]

Quote: a small hit debuff

Quote:it just doesn't do anything

While I don't necessarily disagree with Smoke Screen buffs, these two phrases are straight up lies.



Minus fifty hit is very, very good and there's no feasible way you can tell me otherwise. Smoke Screen is a threat that is only countered by Cyclone Spear or Air Pressure or Evasion ignoring moves OR having enough raw hit on the ST to IGNORE -50 HIT AGAINST AN EVADE BUILD. If an ST puts this under you, you're going to have to move.

It's true. Behold, flank jail.


(Smoke Screen is in a pretty good spot and doesn't need a change, but these suggestions aren't bad. If it becomes a circle the hit number might need to be tweaked, though.)

I'd like to see smoke actually block vision again, but it would need some tweaks. It was really fun mechanically, but also really annoying visually when spammed and just in general for spectators. Making it not block vision for spectators would be a must, and perhaps changing the vision obscuring to limiting the vision of those standing in it to a certain range circle around them instead of acting like a solid object for the purposes of vision at all times.

I think the whole "block vision" is more a Dream Maker limitation than anything. Opacity and non-Opacity are the only options that can be coded on an object.

It's not like invisibility which has layers you can configure, or else Dev would've made this long ago.

In this game I don't think its ever healthy for LoS to be blocked, White Prison isn't used nearly enough to have been a problem regarding that, and I'm sure people would grow just as annoyed if it were spammed without end. Jam is correct in that Smokescreen's hit penalty is massively effective, smokescreen can very often force an opponent to move and trade equal momentum spent, or less when answered with 1m mobility or a move that would damage and move you at the same time. (Flip shot for example)

Smokescreen is not good for these reasons, its numbers are high but its application is not so useful sometimes, I would be more inclined to go with Kunai's idea where Smokescreen could be a circle, but as a result it should become less of a hit debuff. (Still something significant like -25 Hit) As then the usefulness of the ability would be to trap you and your opponent inside, or an enemy and an ally inside, the Ninjutsu talent "Kagero" should also assist in this endeavor, and should be considered among these kinds of builds.

Additionally I believe that the Ninjutsu talent "Endan" should apply to all smokescreen tiles instead of just bomb smokescreen. (Maybe at half effectiveness.)

If you get Endan I think its fair to ignore it, The line shape is certainly weird now that it doesn't actually block vision anymore, circle would be much more desirable.

Agree with Autumn here. The momentum trade-off rarely works in its current iteration 2-3 Tiles circle should be fine...Also I can finally yell "SMOKEBOMB!" and flee. A plus all around.

(08-04-2022, 01:30 PM)Collector Wrote: [ -> ]It's true. Behold, flank jail.


(Smoke Screen is in a pretty good spot and doesn't need a change, but these suggestions aren't bad. If it becomes a circle the hit number might need to be tweaked, though.)

Okay, so this is a pretty good example of how people are wrong about smoke screen. The only person that hit debuff applies to is you if you do this. You need to be standing IN the smoke screen for the hit debuff to touch you. If you fire into it from outside of the smoke, there's no hit debuff. Putting yourself in a corner under smokescreen doesn't do anything but hurt your own HIT.

Ninjitu does seem to apply to ST smokescreens, though.

And the idea that putting it below an enemy means they HAVE to move is kinda the problem we're addressing here. It's a 3m skill that does nothing but prompts an enemy to use a movement ability, one that will probably take them out of the smoke screen, do damage, maybe move you in the process, and just generally have better value than 'make an enemy move for less momentum than the spell's cost.'

Smokescreen has a bunch of other problems such as a lack of spamability. You can only have 1 down at a time, probably because at one point it could be used to obfuscate an entire battlefield which, as someone who used it a lot when it was a thing, was an awful mechanic and please don't ever suggest it being a thing again. RIP the good ol' days of screenshotting a battlefield every time I threw down a bomb, but also I won't miss it.

It's a 3 momentum trade that you will always lose in terms of value unless the person under it just has no idea what they're doing. It could theoretically be comboed with some form of immobilize, but even then it's not the skill that's doing the heavy lifting in that case. It needs a change to actually have some possibility of impacting a match other than being a trap option that will only put the caster behind in terms of momentum.

New Suggestion: Lower it to Lv15-25 and keep it as 3m for its first cast, but any time you cast smokescreen with one already active, it deletes the old (which it already does) and makes a new one but refunds 2m?

My honest take on smokescreen is that on the surface it has a pretty hefty hit debuff... but itt actually doesn't do a whole lot?

The targeting on it is jank due to it being a white prison type of positioning where more often than not you don't even have the chance to put it in a spot where they're forced to make a decision to trade 3m for 3m. It's a big hit debuff when it works, but more often than not it's actually a negative, at least relative to using a normal 3m skill. Smokescreens are neutral tiles, so the -50 hit also applies to yourself unless that changed / is different for yourself and sometimes that can be used against you.

You can argue that you can pull and drag people later while the smokescreen is still up to force them into a state where movement is required but... frankly speaking, there's a lot of attack moves that just move you on top of damage, so it's really not that big of an issue even under those circumstances.

As for line of sight mechanics? I wholeheartedly disagree, Line of Sight is a very fun mechanic that should be used more in moderation, the main issue with it was because we had TOO many good sources of ridiculous smoke generation with smoking rune in its previous/current iterations and Ninjutsu bombs. Line of sight is frankly a tactical element that we need more of, but it takes a fine balance to make it not too obtrusive or overly apparent.

I don't mind the suggestion making it 3m to initially put down / 2m refund to move it later, but I'd just prefer if we had the LoS element back on smokescreen (The spell) in particular even if it comes at the cost of the LV being massively reduced, it was a fun and engaging way to play a rogue using traps and so forth.