08-12-2022, 05:17 AM
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08-12-2022, 06:33 AM
so basically you want to give it to priest and aqua? There's a pretty good reason why priest doesn't get hsdw, though, so I would disagree. Divine shower with hsdw... That would be totally broken in any kind of scenario. I'm also kind of assuming you mean it would be a skill and not a passive since it would be straight up op that way
08-12-2022, 07:10 AM
As a skill yes, giving it to priest hexer aqua ect. Could make it a statusthst immediately expires once a invoke is cast instead of allowing multiple rounds of invokes
Normal
Turn 1divine shower. Turn 2 finish divine shower.
With new 1 time deal hsdw
Turn 1 hsdw+ 4m of something. Turn 2 pray. Turn 3 divine shower+ finish. Status consumed after casting is completed.
So its 9m or 3m to then choose when to spend 6-7m to strategically pick when to cast it
Normal
Turn 1divine shower. Turn 2 finish divine shower.
With new 1 time deal hsdw
Turn 1 hsdw+ 4m of something. Turn 2 pray. Turn 3 divine shower+ finish. Status consumed after casting is completed.
So its 9m or 3m to then choose when to spend 6-7m to strategically pick when to cast it
08-12-2022, 01:13 PM
High Speed Divine Words right now has very limited value. HSDW only starts paying itself back in terms of momentum after the first invocation, and typically you'd sooner just Charge Mind to get the most out of one cast. Being able to splice in actions before beginning the invocation is useful, sure, and it'd undoubtedly be useful on classes that AREN'T Evoker (evoker has next-to-nothing to do with 4m prior to casting except moving). That being said, I don't think HSDW should be given to everyone. Evoker undoubtedly needs changing, HSDW undoubtedly needs changing, but this doesn't seem like the way to go for me. High Speed Divine Words is part of Evoker's identity, and it should remain part of Evoker's identity, otherwise you'd be giving a mediocre class even less reason to be picked.
No, I think it'd be fine. Evoker/Priests are scary because of the modifiers to spells Evoker innates and passives grant Priest's mapwide multi-hit invoke, and even then it simply makes them do as much damage as all of Evoker's invocations anyway - they're the same scaling, 180% ele, 100% SWA. HSDW is as potent as it is for Priest as it is for Evoker, no more no less.
Quote:Divine shower with hsdw... That would be totally broken in any kind of scenario.
No, I think it'd be fine. Evoker/Priests are scary because of the modifiers to spells Evoker innates and passives grant Priest's mapwide multi-hit invoke, and even then it simply makes them do as much damage as all of Evoker's invocations anyway - they're the same scaling, 180% ele, 100% SWA. HSDW is as potent as it is for Priest as it is for Evoker, no more no less.
08-12-2022, 04:56 PM
It should be noted that HSDW currently offers a tactical advantage as well, being able to output an invocation freely on your turn instead of needing to commit to the option of using the invocation, this also enables strategies where in you are allowed to move away and then cast at the same time, which can differ greatly from casting in someone's face.
Greaper already applying to other class' invocations offers enough of an advantage to give Evoker an edge if you want to be a Divine Shower spammer at all. So no I don't think HSDW should apply to Divine Shower, as Divine Shower's immense strength is held back a bit by not being able to cast it back to back to back, and instead it has at least a 2 turn down period in which you must spend a full 6m to cast it again.
Evoker/Priest under HSDW would suddenly go from being a primary nuisance in a fight to being an outright balance issue. In it's current state. As unlike the Evoker invocations, Divine Shower is conditionless AoE damage to the entire map, alongside a blind, and it ignores evade too because why not. Divine Shower's momentum Efficiency will be that you do not have to spend additional momentum on blink to hit an intended target if they should move away.
Greaper already applying to other class' invocations offers enough of an advantage to give Evoker an edge if you want to be a Divine Shower spammer at all. So no I don't think HSDW should apply to Divine Shower, as Divine Shower's immense strength is held back a bit by not being able to cast it back to back to back, and instead it has at least a 2 turn down period in which you must spend a full 6m to cast it again.
Evoker/Priest under HSDW would suddenly go from being a primary nuisance in a fight to being an outright balance issue. In it's current state. As unlike the Evoker invocations, Divine Shower is conditionless AoE damage to the entire map, alongside a blind, and it ignores evade too because why not. Divine Shower's momentum Efficiency will be that you do not have to spend additional momentum on blink to hit an intended target if they should move away.
08-13-2022, 02:38 AM
I don't think that's a wise idea. I'd rather have HSDW moved to Mage and make it work on all Invocations first, than make it accessible to any kind of invocation.
08-13-2022, 03:56 AM
HSDW single-handedly prevents Evoker from getting meaningful buffs or changes to make it more than just "use Vydel/Ryemei/Greaper with Hexer or Priest". In my opinion, the skill should be reworked entirely, not given to everybody else.
08-13-2022, 01:50 PM
The reason that evoker doesn't get any 'meaningful buffs' is because it's currently in a really good spot right now. Because HSDW is fine.
It's one of the few classes that exist pretty well where they're at and are a good place to compare other classes to. It's strong but not egregiously overpowered. It has good grind abilities but not the best. It can be overwhelmingly oppressive but offers counterplay. Etc. Etc. Etc.
Why change it? I'm still not sure what that kind of change hopes to achieve besides upset a nice piece of balance that currently exists.
It's one of the few classes that exist pretty well where they're at and are a good place to compare other classes to. It's strong but not egregiously overpowered. It has good grind abilities but not the best. It can be overwhelmingly oppressive but offers counterplay. Etc. Etc. Etc.
Why change it? I'm still not sure what that kind of change hopes to achieve besides upset a nice piece of balance that currently exists.
08-14-2022, 03:58 PM
Dev themselves has said that the only problem with Evoker invokes is HSDW. And that while he's not sure it needs a nerf, it certainly means Evoker can never really get buffed in a meaningful way.
With that in mind, tweaking HSDW to make it more accessible doesn't seem like it's ever gonna fly. Especially when it's already awkward ground even when restricted.
With that in mind, tweaking HSDW to make it more accessible doesn't seem like it's ever gonna fly. Especially when it's already awkward ground even when restricted.
08-15-2022, 02:27 PM
Make usable by sub-classes, but remove the talent that makes you immune to invocation break via damage. Problem solved. You now have a reason to pack HSDW and there is now counterplay. Evokers still have their usual setup, everyone else benefits, and eventually when everyone agrees that its a stupid potent ability, it can be removed and replaced with something more fitting.
I love Fate/ references as much as the next guy, but HSDW is one of the things keeping Evoker Invocations from feeling as potent as they should, minus the various bugs involved with certain spells by the name of Exgalfa. There shouldn't be an easy way out button for spells like that. If you use an Invocation, you should be forced to commit and only do so when you're in a favourable position to do so, or when doing so would catch an unprepared opponent off guard and force them out of position to try and break you.
Side benefit: It'll expose Priest as Evoker+, And then we can finally see some balancing done for THAT mess of a class as well.
I love Fate/ references as much as the next guy, but HSDW is one of the things keeping Evoker Invocations from feeling as potent as they should, minus the various bugs involved with certain spells by the name of Exgalfa. There shouldn't be an easy way out button for spells like that. If you use an Invocation, you should be forced to commit and only do so when you're in a favourable position to do so, or when doing so would catch an unprepared opponent off guard and force them out of position to try and break you.
Side benefit: It'll expose Priest as Evoker+, And then we can finally see some balancing done for THAT mess of a class as well.
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