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+--- Thread: Ranylyn's reasoning: BW Tweak. (/showthread.php?tid=242)
Ranylyn's reasoning: BW Tweak. - Ranylyn - 11-27-2014
I get it. Experimental system. Rushed. Prone to change.
My suggestion is simply a logical tweak that might save a lot of sifting through, and it pains me to say this, "butthurt complaints." An idea for how to -easily- adjust the system.
Thoughts on BW: Not an inherently bad idea, and probably meant to balance the Bodyguard armor, which was apparently being maliciously exploited in PVP. In general, meant to limit heavier weapons and armor to heavier classes. Good idea in theory.
Current issue: BW = Str. Str doesn't have particularly high gains overall. 30% str is common enough (Kensei, BK, VA) with 40% as the highest (Arbalest.) As such, it is very unlikely that most str based classes will pass a base str of 45. Even a simple Half Plate (one of the lighter "passable" heavy armors) weighs closer to 30, and an axe pushes you over the limit, for terrible hit penalties. A bodyguard alone almost means taking hit penalties UNARMED.
Tweak suggetion: Naturally, some classes are "heavier" by default: Arbalest and BK (Very arguably ghost because of axe skills.) These are the heavy armor classes that use axes. And heavy bows, in the Arbalest's case. As such, if one of these is your base class, you should recieve a passive modifier to BW that does not cost SP. Str x 2 instead of Str should be sufficient to allow them (The classes literally intended, according to the game, to have the heavy armor and weapons) to fight efficiently with their heavier gear without giving a free pass to "lighter" classes to go all heavy.
Reason for tweak suggestion: The modifier is that high because Arbalests literally need to stack weight; the heavy bow for bonus power, the heavy ubweapon for cannon skills, and of course, heavy armor to endure as they do so; the unlock requirements involve heavy armor, after all! As well, BKs are in a similar boat; Armor + axe alone already goes over what most BKs can carry. No one else really needs such heavy gear.
Re: Ranylyn's reasoning: BW Tweak. - Grandpa - 11-27-2014
How about half-level + strength. Everyone wins.
Re: Ranylyn's reasoning: BW Tweak. - Rendar - 11-27-2014
Dev has already stated that BW will get a few bonuses if you have Special Armament/Heavy Bow Mastery/Defense Mastery < BK >. As in, it will probably reduce the BW cost of Sub Weapon/Bow/Armor 'weight'.
He has also stated that things will be tweaked.
1/2 LVL + STR is a terrible idea. Just saying. thats, at minimum 30+STR at max level, which gives anyone, even mages, free reign over wielding pretty much whatever the hell they want. Tomes at a base cost 12 weight, dual wielding them is 24. Armor for mages should weigh next to nothing. Wham-bam, they're under the limit and only melee units are suffering.
1/10th+STR might be permissible, considering my lich has 6 strength at level 60, it would allow him to wield a normal tome and a 0 weight armor without to much fuss. Or dual wield the fan set.
Re: Ranylyn's reasoning: BW Tweak. - Grandpa - 11-27-2014
Okay, how about 1-2 more BW for every rank of packrat you have? Kind of makes sense and makes the talent actually worthwhile. Pretty much the same as 1/10th level + str, just promotes the use of that talent. Seems like a better idea to me.
Re: Ranylyn's reasoning: BW Tweak. - Rendar - 11-27-2014
Oh right. Forgot to mention Dev said he was going to do something similar to that, probably next update.
Re: Ranylyn's reasoning: BW Tweak. - Ryu-Kazuki - 11-27-2014
Right, since we're on the topic of BW, I want to bring up some things concerning mages. Because currently I don't like the system already, and how it messes with my ideal for wielding a tome and Spelledge for melee combat is even worse. It's really making me dislike this system so far.
On the topic for classes that don't get strength, they're really cut short, forced to single wield or slap enchants on their weapons in order to make them less heavy (which invalidates some of the weapons when people have / want Divine).
Currently, two tomes, that even remotely can do any decent bit of normal attack damage, both weigh 18 weight, each. That's ridiculous with the new system. I get it, books aren't supposed to be perfectly light, and this balances part of the weight out, but holy crap, nobody is going to hardly want to use Kigal or an Excel Tome now with the implemented changes. It's not really okay or fair to just force people to slap on Floating either (especially when basic or most swords are less in weight than these two), and Kigal doesn't come in Galdric, nor can you craft an Excel tome.
I just Legend Extended last night and ended up with 6 STR due to a stamp mod by about level 6, with a Kigal in my main hand (granted, sure this is a way to get away from Kigal maybe, but still), now I'm currently suffering -24 to HIT and EVADE because I'm 18/6 BW shortly after LE'ing. And I'd planned on getting a Magical Moon so I'd be able to use it in my main hand and Kigal as an off-hand alternate way of attacking at melee range.
Sure, it alleviates EVADE as part of a problem if people don't plan right, but really, now I can barely even attack with my Kigal without having a -24 to HIT at the start of my next extension, and with my classes I'll only get a 22% STR growth as a Zeran Evoker/GS (only for growths before I switch off to LB/GS) with style blending, and 27% with Axys Al. I'll barely get enough STR to even remotely wield the Kigal by itself when I reach lv 60 again.
I say, either some of the heavier tomes, especially these two should be reduced in weight, or BW should be changed to 1.5x STR instead of just 1 STR, because otherwise, Mages will have a hard time getting anywhere with weaponry now due to the BW changes.
Re: Ranylyn's reasoning: BW Tweak. - Rendar - 11-27-2014
The Excelgraph literally has an engine built into it. It follows in line with the other tomes. All I can say to your "b-BUT MY TOMES" is wait until next update where Dev makes a few changes. It'll get better, but I don't like the idea of a mage who has 20 strength, if that, should be able to wield a rustic carapace magical moon and a excel graph in your offhand.
This creation has made Galdric, Floating, and the 'lighter' ores more of a viable option. Creating items has always been a bane of the system, and next-to-useless when crafting anything but very specific ( Wo-Dao ) weapons.
Re: Ranylyn's reasoning: BW Tweak. - Ryu-Kazuki - 11-27-2014
"[url=http://neus-projects.net/viewtopic.php?p=1214#p1214 Wrote:Rendar ยป Thu Nov 27, 2014 2:01 pm[/url]"]The Excelgraph literally has an engine built into it. It follows in line with the other tomes. All I can say to your "b-BUT MY TOMES" is wait until next update where Dev makes a few changes. It'll get better, but I don't like the idea of a mage who has 20 strength, if that, should be able to wield a rustic carapace magical moon and a excel graph in your offhand.
This creation has made Galdric, Floating, and the 'lighter' ores more of a viable option. Creating items has always been a bane of the system, and next-to-useless when crafting anything but very specific ( Wo-Dao ) weapons.
Tomes in the first place don't even use Galdric, so their weight wouldn't even be affected. Plus, with the STR potential any melee can dual wield and wear heavy armor with no problem. Michio (LRD's Yuisen) was able to get 80 STR long before the Legend Authoring update, it's pretty unfair that I can't dual wield just because people don't want me to, especially when I -like- using stuff other than spells, and also need it in the event my FP is drained to the point I can't use them anymore.
My VA/Kensei has no problem dual wielding, and even my heavier characters don't either while having two weapons and rock solid armor on. "I don't want mages to dual wield because I said so" is a poor argument, because it's entirely unfair. Yes, there should be penalties and limits, but I can barely attack with my weapon to even fight at this point, plus I like being character thematic and not all meta with the (wield a powerful ass object and PvP like it's a competition), but there's no other tomes that do darkness damage right now, and I don't even have enough FP after LE'ing to combat.
If this led to being able to craft more objects, and still alleviated the problem somewhat, I'd be more happy with it, but right now all it's doing is making me irritated that now some of my characters aren't penalized for having more and better ways of fighting just because they're able to carry two big-ass Kamina sized weapons around and have their own gravitational pull. Tomes are books, books don't weight that freaking much to the point that swords without Galdric ore or Floating enchantments weigh less than them.
Also, I don't like how my armor makes me hit things less, I don't see the logic behind that. Evade? Sure. Hit? No.
Also, to mention this, Axes are going to be a bane as is. I'm glad some of my characters don't wield them.
My BK/Ghost has 27 STR at lv 43. Now, while that's kind of bad, the problem is, I only have 31 BW, and my current is 30. 30/31 BW on a Black Knight. Who mind you isn't even wearing heavy armor. That's cutting it -really- close even for a melee person.
Re: Ranylyn's reasoning: BW Tweak. - Rendar - 11-27-2014
"80 strength and able to dual wield and wear heavy armor"
Do you realize how silly that statement is Ryu?
Let's look at an Arbalest. Arbalests are heavier, for the better. Their bow should be 20+, so lets go with 21 minimum, offhand heavy as hell. 25+, Armor. Let's go with HALF PLATE, instead of a body guard. That is 21, 25, 25. That is 71 weight, already. If they use a bodyguard, it's nigh impossible. however Dev doesnt care about BG and hates it. it needs to burn.
Let's just go and assume it's a ~normal~ person however. A BK who decides to use a 15 weight spear, and a 30 weight armor. Due to Carapace. They have to, at least, have 45 strength. Not really unreasonable, unless their equipment is Carapace, which means they should probably have, at least, +16 more strength to wield stuff.
Using "WELL I SAW MICHIO ONCE HAVE 80 STRENGTH" isn't a valid arguement. That was before the double-accessory update, and he worked, throwing pretty much .every. bonus available, into his STR. Clocking out at 80 maximum. I don't find anything wrong with this system, it makes strength more of a .needed. stat. Don't like not being able to dual wield? Take Pure Power as an evoker and drop some gear slots. Simple as that.
As it stands, WILL is the most dominant stat about determining ones character, this update made it so that Strength has a TON of bearing on that. You aren't going to be seeing some weak person trying to swing a 40 pound sword like a master anymore, it actually inflicts penalties because of how sluggish you are. I have a lich, currently, who dual wields. They dual wield Mugendai's for the set bonus, and is 6 over their maximum weight atm. Does that stop me from using it, not at all. I spam-cast Magaisendo, etc constantly. I usually don't even eat food, so FP is never even an issue for me, which makes me wonder how your Zeran Evo/GS is having issues keeping FP about if .you. don't cast Sear/Magaisendo with them.
"No problem dual wielding and wearing heavy armor" is a rather big lie though. Almost everyone is having issues with dual wielding currently, hell Galeon can't even wield his gun without falling over dead. ( He's at maximum, so definitely no armor ever ). I personally would love to see more crafting come from this, but trust me whenever I say that Packrat will definitely give a bit more 'weight' limit. The penalties really aren't that bad, just a minor inconvenience.
Re: Ranylyn's reasoning: BW Tweak. - Ryu-Kazuki - 11-27-2014
I just said I wanted this for normal attacking, not Pure Power to increase my spell damage.
Even at lv 6 I only have 50 FP on my Zeran, which still requires me to do the old, run back, take the inn, get FP back, as a Legend Extended character. That's pretty ridiculous when it's a problem Mages have had since level 1 total.
This still doesn't explain why tomes, books, which cast magic, weigh more than a sword, or even an axe. I'm having trouble -single- wielding at the moment is what I'm saying. And a -24 to HIT at the start is ridiculous. Not even a regular tome would alleviate my problem because I'd still be over the limit.
Plus, a 1 Pro for a -2 Con isn't worth it. If it were 1.5 STR (with mods applied) I would be more than happy to accept this, but I shouldn't be forced to take a talent that gets refreshed every LE, and dropped back to shitty basic combat every time I LE either because I suddenly magically can no longer hold my weapon up (you know, a book that shouldn't weigh more than a few pounds). Where's the logic in that?
Also, okay Packrat by what we guess may potentially give more, to a max of what, 10? That's still pretty miniscule to what's necessary to properly combat in the first place now.
Basing it off level is bad because of how it makes you have to get up in level to even use a weapon you like. STR scaling would be better, despite it may fluctuate, it still increases as you grow, which is part of training and building da mahscule.
But seriously, I'm not even talking about the tome issue for the sake of WIL and spell power, I'm talking about basic, melee range, combat. And I can barely even do that right now as a mage. And it's pretty bad that Seirina's Spelledge Axe which has 31 power still weighs less than Kigal, an item that isn't even that great compared to it in terms of damage or Spell Power.