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Ether Winvitation - Printable Version

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Ether Winvitation - Kameron8 - 01-29-2017

In light of recent discussions about changing skills, weapons, and elemental attacks that scale off of defensive stats, I don't think it's unreasonable to include EI in that list. Missing health is, for all intents and purposes, tank-stat dependent. There was a massive chain of discussion about it in an earlier thread, so this is a continuation of that to suggest reworking the skill entirely. I'd like to know Dev's opinion on the skill as a whole, since having a framework for reworking things helps immensely.

Since submitting this thread without any sort of starting point would be counterproductive, I'll throw out an idea to get the ball rolling.

Ether Invitation

Cooldown: 3 Turns

An invitation to the underworld. The target of this skill must be marked with Claret Call. This attacks the target normally with a bonus to critical equal to Rank*10. If it hits, the damage dealt is increased by a percentage based on your missing health. Claret Call is then removed from the target, and the target cannot be marked again for 3 rounds. The damage bonus is capped at Rank*20%.

The damage bonus is equal to (%missing health *1.6). This means in order for the attack to reach the damage cap at Rank 5, the Ghost needs to be at or below 37.5% HP. At that health threshold, it becomes an attack with +50 to crit, and double damage.

With missing health changing from static to percentage, as well as damage being tied to normal attack damage, the skill doesn't incentivize building straight tank as heavily anymore. However, it's still useful to those who invest in defense, because people with 500 health and paper rags for armor don't often live to see 35% HP. Also worth noting, the duration of unmarkable was extended by a turn and the skill itself was given a cooldown. The latter was done to remove the possibility of using Ether Invitation multiple times on multiple targets in the span of one or two turns.

Some identifiable issues with this iteration, however, are:
-Excel weapons with +50 crit and +100% Damage.
-Build locked to crit builds, for the most part. (There exists very few basic attack builds that aren't crit builds, but given duelist focuses on them, I find this acceptable.)
-Dicks over squishy people far more than tanks, because damage reduction is all percentage based. This is also inevitable, unless the game starts revolving around using skills that do a percent of the target's maximum HP. That would be unbalanced in the entirely other direction, so this is also something that can be expected. The silver lining is that Ether Invitation can be dodged.

Whether or not you agree with what I came up with, keep in mind this thread is for the skill as a whole, not my iteration of the ability in specific.

Re: Ether Winvitation - Chaos - 01-29-2017

While Ether Invitation is an easy burst for tank builds, I don't think turning this skill into the Basic Attack equivalent of Mad Chop is the best idea.

If we had to nerf EI, I would perfer that the damage formula becomes (Rank*100)*((HP Percentage + 1)%). In other words, turn the skill's damage cap into the damage it deals, but modify it by how much HP the user has left. (100% HP does jack, 50% HP does roughly half, 1% HP for full damage)

This would make EI far less abuse-worthy for builds with tons of HP, while keeping its damage consistent across the board. (and not just limiting the skill to crit builds)

Re: Ether Winvitation - MegaBlues - 01-29-2017

The cooldown already exists in the form of Unmarkable. I think that making this skill do the difference between the user's and the target's HP to a max of 75 per rank would be enough.

Re: Ether Winvitation - Lolzytripd - 01-29-2017

I agree with chaos, also it already has its own cooldown as mega stated, unmarkable, which surprise surprise isn't only triggered by EI, Death gaze/Rebound/Last chance (which they have no choice in not using) apply unmarkable.


also stop suggesting cooldowns, after the test where everything had cooldowns was proven to be the worst idea ever.


I mean if I were to suggest putting a 5 turn cooldown on hsdw and charge mind, and a 3 turn cool down on expanding ice, you'd flip out I bet.

Re: Ether Winvitation - Snake - 01-29-2017

I agree with Chaos, and I think I've shared the same opinion back when we were discussing about Ether Invitation buffs. So yeah, fully supporting what he said.

And Lolzy, wat. Chill vey, it's only a Balance-Fu, why you heff to be mad?

Re: Ether Winvitation - Ranylyn - 01-29-2017

To be fair, I think Lolzy has a good point: Cooldowns are becoming the 4M of current SL2, aka "OMG GIVE IT A COOLDOWN, I'M NOT EVEN LISTENING TO ANY OTHER SUGGESTION, COOLDOWN WHEN!?" People are way too quick to demand slapping cooldowns on everything, even for skills that already HAVE them in a sense (See: Anything on a Ghost that causes Unmarkable.)

(Yes, I'm aware of the "null shell removing unmarkable" thing, but that really seems more of a bug. We shouldn't kneejerk around that.)

Honestly, if I were Dev, I probably wouldn't take any such suggestion seriously at the present time, considering that almost every other skill has a better solution available and people just don't want to consider alternatives. Cooldowns are best left for things like Grenade Launcher and Checkmate, which took on cooldowns in exchange for lowered momentum costs, as well as heals because of PVP stalemates.

(I admit I was ticked when I noticed Grenade Launcher has a cooldown now since it's fairly weak anyways, but then I realized it only costs 1M now, so you can just use it as an extra action at the end of a turn, so it works *shrug*)


Anyways, my whining about cooldowns aside, let's discuss the other suggested issue: Percentage based HP.

I personally don't think EI needs any change at all; Ghosts naturally want high HP because of Rising Game, so they can fight decently wounded while still not being in any perceptible danger, and using EI locks you out of Last Chance for several turns, making it a desperate gambit that's as likely to get you killed as it is to pay off. EI damage is also reduced by defenses, so you'll NEVER do the max damage (unless you follow up a Buster Cannon or something) since the cap is applied BEFORE defenses, so you'll rarely see above 250-ish, possibly much lower, depending. On a move you generally never get to use more than once in a single 1v1, since you need to be missing considerable HP (500 for max damage) before it even becomes worth using.

While I can appreciate and respect suggestions to make it percentage based, I'm also against it simply since it's possible to make a lower HP character with obscene stacked DR from multiple sources. By making it independant of Vitality/Sanctity, the floodgates are essentially opened to allow "Shuckle"-type builds to abuse it.

Re: Ether Winvitation - Kameron8 - 01-29-2017

"Ranylyn" Wrote:To be fair, I think Lolzy has a good point: Cooldowns are becoming the 4M of current SL2, aka "OMG GIVE IT A COOLDOWN, I'M NOT EVEN LISTENING TO ANY OTHER SUGGESTION, COOLDOWN WHEN!?" People are way too quick to demand slapping cooldowns on everything, even for skills that already HAVE them in a sense (See: Anything on a Ghost that causes Unmarkable.)

That addition was only present to stop people from using the skill on multiple people one after another; the fact that it has Unmarkable made it less significant than slapping a cooldown on a normal skill. This is all fine, however, because what I suggested isn't the main point of the thread.

"Ranylyn" Wrote:EI damage is also reduced by defenses, so you'll NEVER do the max damage (unless you follow up a Buster Cannon or something) since the cap is applied BEFORE defenses, so you'll rarely see above 250-ish, possibly much lower, depending. On a move you generally never get to use more than once in a single 1v1, since you need to be missing considerable HP (500 for max damage) before it even becomes worth using.

Rarely seeing half damage means the vast majority of the server has 50% DR or higher, which is in of itself indicative of how optimal tanking up is as opposed to going evasive.

"Ranylyn" Wrote:While I can appreciate and respect suggestions to make it percentage based, I'm also against it simply since it's possible to make a lower HP character with obscene stacked DR from multiple sources. By making it independant of Vitality/Sanctity, the floodgates are essentially opened to allow "Shuckle"-type builds to abuse it.

This already happens, but with obscene DR and four digit HP. In terms of effective HP, what we have now will always last longer (and use more EI's) than the build you're worried will surface.

"Chaos" Wrote:While Ether Invitation is an easy burst for tank builds, I don't think turning this skill into the Basic Attack equivalent of Mad Chop is the best idea.

If we had to nerf EI, I would perfer that the damage formula becomes (Rank*100)*((HP Percentage + 1)%). In other words, turn the skill's damage cap into the damage it deals, but modify it by how much HP the user has left. (100% HP does jack, 50% HP does roughly half, 1% HP for full damage)

This would make EI far less abuse-worthy for builds with tons of HP, while keeping its damage consistent across the board. (and not just limiting the skill to basic attack/crit builds)

I like this idea too, since it incorporates dynamic scaling at least partially in the formula. Because of how obscenely dead you have to be to hit the full chunk of damage, I'd argue that this might even be too substantial of a nerf and may need the scaling to reach maximum damage earlier (20% HP, or so). If normal weapon damage is to be left out of the equation, this sounds like a solid way to scale it.

Re: Ether Winvitation - Autumn - 01-29-2017

One of my suggestions would be that EI could be allowed to be powerful(but not as strong as it is now) if it was a one time thing per enemy, for the entire fight, I'll still stand by and see where the thread goes because rank*75 is kinda boring since it doesn't change what's wrong with tanks suddenly getting damage for being damaged.

Re: Ether Winvitation - Ranylyn - 01-29-2017

Quote:That addition was only present to stop people from using the skill on multiple people one after another; the fact that it has Unmarkable made it less significant than slapping a cooldown on a normal skill. This is all fine, however, because what I suggested isn't the main point of the thread.

Fair enough. Sorry if it seemed like I was lashing out; I'm honestly just fed up with the mentality I was whining about, and my frustration got the best of me. I do personally think that a Ghost should be able to use their Marks however they want, but I at least understand where you're coming from with that.

Quote:Rarely seeing half damage means the vast majority of the server has 50% DR or higher, which is in of itself indicative of how optimal tanking up is as opposed to going evasive.

I do agree. However, I feel we may also see a shift in this after the weapon scaling rebalance. I don't expect a sudden influx of glass cannons or anything, but we may see a surge of slightly more balanced characters.

(In Fire Emblem terms, I'm basically hoping we'd go from "Generals and Nostank Shamans/Sorcerers everywhere" to "Heroes and Sages being more prevalent." I realize this is likely WAY too optimistic, but you never know.)

Quote:This already happens, but with obscene DR and four digit HP. In terms of effective HP, what we have now will always last longer (and use more EI's) than the build you're worried will surface.

I've always been of the opinion that Defenses > HP in most games, so I admit I'm biased on this front. 1 HP might save you from one hit once, but 1 defense shaves damage off every single hit you take, potentially allowing you to survive even more hits. It also makes healing to max easier. (SL2 gives several HP per point of Vit, though, so it's not exactly like in Fire Emblem when I'd rather have 20 HP and 40 def than 60 HP and 0 Def)

I simply bring it up at all since I feel like I won't be the only one who'd try a low HP/ hilarious DR EI build if it was changed to be percentage based. (I know diminishing returns are a thing, but if every point in Vit went towards a higher defensive bonus, it might potentially get silly if stacked with the same obscene DR as a high vit build, though I've never tried it.)


Anyways, sorry if I came across as far more rude than I intended in my last post.

Re: Ether Winvitation - Grandpa - 01-29-2017

Cooldowns are a good idea. Unmarkable can be removed by spellthief. Let's go with a mix of Chaos' idea and a cooldown as well, please? And maybe the 20% for maximum damage bit as well. Usually the only point in time you'll be at 1% is when you're using last chance, which makes your opponent unmarkable and the whole thing a bit redundant.