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+--- Thread: Vampire Discourse (/showthread.php?tid=4789)
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Vampire Discourse - Rendar - 08-01-2017
Sanguine Crest, as of right now, is a bit overwhelming.
Even with 0 points invested into Sanctity (not assuming aptitude), this gives the person, at max essence, +5 to STR/WIL/SKI/CEL/DEF. The downside is that, of course, they take more light damage (which can be turned into a boon / overcome with item types), and the fact that Holy will now absolutely shred them (negated by spending 1 trait point to lower it to 1.25x base)
Now, I'm not saying that this is bad, because with 40 san alone and full essence, a vampire gets 30% dark resist and 30% light weakness (which is further raised/lowered by having base san, anyways), however at 40 san, the vampire also gets +9 to STR/WIL/SKI/CEL/DEF. I know a number of builds that can put 3 of those to use, let alone 4 of them. It's kind of absolutely bonkers that, Vampires as a race, just get +45 stat points. For what? 25% reduced healing in combat?
Lunar Lunatism moreee than makes up for that, but that's besides the point.
I'm not sure what needs to change, but something needs to because, as of right now, Vampires are probably one of the more overbearing races in terms of strength, and get I think a bit to much from building Sanctity compared to every other race (not including Corrutped/Humans/Mechs). The only type of character that can really punish a vampire is a basic attacker, and even then, they punish everyone who dares to use spirits to be possessed (to which the vampire can take lesser extents with bright darkness).
Re: Vampire Discourse - Cat15 - 08-01-2017
Just to clear up a few things that are inaccurate or potentially misleading.
1.) With the Devotion talents, Holy is a 1.75x damage multiplier. Bright Darkness lowers this to 1.50x.
2.) At 40 SAN and max essence, Sanguine Crest grants 30% light weakness, not resistance.
3.) The +45 bonus stat point example you listed entails a 40 stat point investment, rather than being automatic, and lowers in combat when Essence is consumed.
4.) Vampires have a 75% reduction to all non-Silvermist healing (or effects that count as Silvermist healing), not 25%.
5.) Using spirits or anything else that changes Racial type (Drowned Woman, Death Knighting, etc.) negates the Bright Darkness trait.
6.) There are non-basic attack builds that are incredibly effective against Vampires. Overload is a pretty good example.
Vampires are a high-strength high-drawback race, which makes them more difficult to balance in comparison to other races. Especially given that their benefits and drawbacks tend to be highly situational. While Sanguine Crest is incredibly powerful in a build that uses 4-5 of the stats, it's far less so in one that used only 1-2 of them. Lunar Lunatism requires status inflict and SAN to do much/anything. The Holy enchant weakness is irrelevant when not fighting someone with a Holy weapon, and incredibly overbearing when fighting someone with one.
I'm not arguing that Vampires don't need any adjustments. However, they should at least be based on accurate information and take the balance of strengths and weaknesses into account.
Re: Vampire Discourse - Rendar - 08-01-2017
Whoops. I'm tired. I meant to put in weakness, not resist. I'll fix that now.
It's 1.75x with the devotion talent (but most everyone is possessed of some kind, so not running a holy weapon is just in poor form if you're going basic attacker).
I meant 25% healing (as in they receive 25% of any healing, not they only lose 25% of it).
I know #5, that wasn't what I was going for (I was stating that it's just in poor form since most everyone is using spirits now.
I'm a bit upset that I didn't catch the flubbed up bits when I was proof-reading this. Sorry.
Re: Vampire Discourse - Snake - 08-01-2017
If they're losing power, they better damn right lose their healing drawback. Vampires are suicide bombers in teamfights that only have their HP and bam, ded. That, since they can't be healed up or use PR-Hi Potion thanks to it.
Re: Vampire Discourse - MegaBlues - 08-01-2017
I would say, the only changes Vampires need are to:
-Change Sanguine Crest to give +1 to STR/WIL/SKI/DEF/VIT at 100 Essence, and an additional +1 per 20 Essence over 100.
-Change their healing effectiveness to 50% rather than 25%
-Bonus to Hit for Banquet equal to SAN
This would bring their stat bonus in line with Instinct, give them a bit of healing power back to make up for the loss of power, and make Banquet, and therefore Silvermists and Lunar Lunatism, easier to use. So if you want to take advantage of the fact you're a Vampire, you'd better be willing for people to know. Or be alone.
Re: Vampire Discourse - Snake - 08-01-2017
Healing Reduction could also be (25 + Scaled SAN)%, but the minimum for Sanguine Crest would be +2 at 100 Essence, +1 per 20.
10 extra stats are okay enough for not building SAN, and let's not wreck them, don't forget Holy Weakness, and that Silvermists heals only paper cuts for a major stat loss.
Re: Vampire Discourse - Autumn - 08-01-2017
My only issue with SANpires is that they gain more stats than any other race simply for being vampire, +30 infact, at 10 SAN, which is the minimum achieved for any vampire with APT, they will have +6 to STR WIL SKI CEL DEF, +30 stat points total, the idea that the stats only apply after 100 is alright, but if that were the case I'd prefer it be changed to 1 stat per 15 essence.
Re: Vampire Discourse - Rendar - 08-03-2017
I'd be kind-of-fine with Vampires getting a hit down in stats (to make them less overbearing overall).
At 0 SAN (and 100 essence) you have no stat bonuses. You have dark resist/light weakness, but it's mostly negated by brighter darkness.
You can build up to 10 SAN for a +1 to those 5 stats.
Overall, I would like to see at the 52 san (for 50 scaled), the person gets +6 to 5 stats, always. This comes with all the other benefits/negatives alongside it. So, Sanguine Crest could be changed to every 15 points over 100 you get +1 to the stats. This will put them more-in-line with a few other races. Add onto this that their HOLY weakness doesn't start out at 1.5x
It instead starts at SAN*2x (caps at 1.5x) This way, you could be a normal vampire, and only points gained via aptitude. This would allow brighter darkness to cover folks that have 12-13 san completely, making them unaffected by it. However, if you go above this, brighter darkness will still apply. Only around 38 scaled san does brighter darkness stop working. Because it will apply before the cap is reached.. so something like.
((SAN*2)-25) = X
X% Holy damage Taken, if X > 50, then set to 50.
This will fix some people wanting to play low-san vamps, who were forced against their will (lol), but should also make it so that the higher SAN vamps don't just get to negate half of their weakness for still gaining a shitton of stats.
Re: Vampire Discourse - PantherPrincess - 08-03-2017
"Snake" Wrote:If they're losing power, they better damn right lose their healing drawback. Vampires are suicide bombers in teamfights that only have their HP and bam, ded. That, since they can't be healed up or use PR-Hi Potion thanks to it.
What Kunai said. Pretty much sums it up. They already have so many weaknesses (holy, light, no healing) and not to mention that there are worse races out right now than a vampire. Look at Liches. Look at Glykin or Dullahan. I honestly don't see the issue.
Re: Vampire Discourse - Sarinpa1 - 08-03-2017
a princess sums up my thoughts regarding this
they cannot get healed efficently by anything except their own ability, which murders some builds
the few extra stats here and there are far from gamechanging, infact are barely noticable
you get two uses of silvermist (one for around 200hp and another for 130hp (more or less)) if you're a san building vampire, which cripples you and then you're done, any momentum consuming methods of recovery are inefficent in comparison to using litteraly anything else.
look at glykin
you can ez get to sixty-ish hp regen per round, poison immunity etcetera. so in around five rounds, they passively heal as much as a vamp does, with the added option to actualy use litteraly any other methods to heal further
just to bring into perspective how badly crippled they are by the "tfw no heal"
they are fine as they are