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Ghost: Suffering from Success - Printable Version

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Ghost: Suffering from Success - Lonestar - 04-27-2020

Ghost is one of the best, if not the best class in the game currently. The class has a mix of everything that makes it very powerful in itself and that has been the case since the Ghost rework last year. While it made the class better in general, it also made it a bit overtuned with the gameplay changes in some skills. Thanks to that, much like many people before me, I decided to create yet another thread about the class, with nerfs to certain skills, and buffs to other ones that are simply overlooked currently.

These changes are simply suggestions for discussion and can be used as ideas and have the numbers tweaked should Dev feel like it.

Quote:Claret Call
-Clause about Claret Call's maximum level based on Ghost's level + 5 removed.
-Maximum Claret Call LV lowered to 20 for non-destiny Ghosts and 30 for destinied Ghosts.

Claret Call is easily one of the best things of being a Ghost in pratically every class combo there is. The flat damage bonus it provides it simply too high and too good. It can be very easily stacked upon by using physical multihit skills (Mad Chop, Elemental Rave, Thousand Stabs as a few examples as well as other sources) and becomes way worse later on, thanks to Rising Game.

As of now, Non-Destiny Ghosts can reach LV 40 and Destiny Ghosts can reach LV 55. Lowering the max it can get should make it more balanced.

Quote:Sanguine Star
-Momentum cost brought back to 3M.

Back when Ghost's rework released, Sanguine Star was very powerful. 175% total scaling on an AoE was very much nuts and was quite abused pretty early. That stopped until the skill had it's scaling nerfed and cost increased to 4AM. The thing is, the skill only needed a scaling nerf, not a cost nerf. 4M skills don't often mix well with classes like Duelist due to Fleur and is simply good if given to big attacks like Eclair Lacroix and Lance de Lion, which also has lengthy cooldowns.

Bringing the cost back to 3M should make it more used.

Quote:Reaper Scythe
-Scaling lowered to 140% at max rank.

As much as I love axes, Reaper Scythe is a very unbalanced skill, who gained even more popularity with the current meta. While it has a very funky range, it's easily dealt with by using mobile classes like Firebird or doing a combo with Repel. 180% total scaling for a skill that can hit multiple targets, deal magical damage (which is harder to resist without the right classes) and having guard break if the enemy has Claret Call on him is very over the top.

Reducing the scaling of the skill to match Sanguine Star will make it more balanced.

Quote:Rebound
-FP absorption removed.

Ghost has already alot on their plate, and while I believe they should have some sort of health sustain due to some skills costing HP to cast, FP doesn't make much sense in that regard.

Quote:Death Gaze
-Fear requirement removed.

Death Gaze is a skill that's been forgotten every since before Ghost's rework, and the situation remains the same. While it's easy to inflict Fear to the opponent with Haunting, it's still very much not worth to grab with all these requirements on top of each other. Dark being a commonly resisted element on top of removing CC and giving the target the Unmarked buff for two turns is more than enough. Not to mention this skill is very much useless against Shaitans currently.

Quote:Wraithguard
-Damage reduction provided by Wraithguard based on the armor of the user (10% for Heavy Armor, 20% for Light Armor, 30% for Unarmored or No Bonus for Heavy Armor, 15% for Light Armor and 30% for Unarmored.) OR Damage reduction only be active if the user is within 3-5 tiles from the Wraithguard.

Even with the change to Gravestone, WG is still very much all-powerful. And the current strategy is to place it in a corner while you charge forward towards your opponent, gaining 30% DR for good part of the fight. Not only this strategy is straight out boring, but also there's no advantage to the opponent. He's either forced to waste a turn killing it, which could potentially leave you open for attacks or deal with someone that barely takes damage.

Either lowering the DR given based on the armor you're using or making it only active if you're within the range would be good changes.

Quote:Blood Spike
-HP cost increased to 10% OR Scaling reduced.

It deals more damage than Scarlet Twister due to lacking utility, sure, but it still deals alot of damage despite of it. SKI and VIT are very common stats to be built upon and silence is simply not as frequent as it was before, save Hexers and Archers with Nightflower. It applies Claret twice, it can apply Hunted from Bloody Palms, it's AoE and it's two different stances of magic damage.

Giving the user more ouchies or reducing the damage should be the ideal here.


Re: Ghost: Suffering from Success - MakeshiftWalrus - 04-27-2020

I agree with all of these suggestions, except for the destiny cap on Claret Call. One of the most popular, and most frustrating ways people stack Claret Call is by combining it with Fire Bird, and cinder tiles, and this in reality would change very little. In my opinion, it would be healthier to leave it at 20 stacks maximum.

Re: Ghost: Suffering from Success - Miller - 04-27-2020

Quote:Claret Call
-Clause about Claret Call's maximum level based on Ghost's level + 5 removed.
-Maximum Claret Call LV lowered to 20 for non-destiny Ghosts and 30 for destinied Ghosts.

I can agree with this quite frankly, Claret in it's current state provides a ton of damage on it's own. An alternative suggestion I'd add is raising the cap based on your Rising Game level * 6 or 7. Personally I believe this is more flavorful for the class and promotes [strike]killing yourself[/strike].

Claret also interacts strangely with DR, adding a lot more damage than one would expect.



Quote:Sanguine Star
-Momentum cost brought back to 3M.

Sure, I've honestly never seen the point in bringing it up to a 4M move, it just makes it more annoying to use and doesn't have the punch to make up for it.


Quote:Reaper Scythe
-Scaling lowered to 140% at max rank.

This is quite frankly the one I disagree with the most. Axes on Ghosts are fairly limiting as is; requiring you to run Violet Varon or Red Argus (For the Firebird example you gave earlier.) if you want any access to your base duelist class skills; this requires you to supplement it heavily with your subclass. (DH is a popular example.)

It's damage is potent especially with the fact that Claret adds onto it's damage, but it's finnicky range often ends up with someone relying on low momentum cost movement or a move like repel as stated in the OP. If Reaper Scythe's scaling had to be changed, I'd prefer to be 160% if anything.


Quote:Rebound
-FP absorption removed.

Hard agree, nothing more can really be said. Being able to sap a ridiculous amount of FP from a group can be quite annoying at times.



Quote:Death Gaze
-Fear requirement removed.

Agreed, nothing more can really be said.


Quote:Wraithguard
-Damage reduction provided by Wraithguard based on the armor of the user (10% for Heavy Armor, 20% for Light Armor, 30% for Unarmored or No Bonus for Heavy Armor, 15% for Light Armor and 30% for Unarmored.) OR Damage reduction only be active if the user is within 3-5 tiles from the Wraithguard.

I can get behind this change especially since old Wraithguard didn't allow heavy armor. A lot of tanky ghosts tend to run Turtle Shell on top of Wraithguard, I don't see an issue if this change occurred with no bonus towards heavy and full towards light/unarmored.


Quote:Blood Spike
-HP cost increased to 10% OR Scaling reduced.

10% HP cost wouldn't change a whole lot, so I believe a scaling change would affect it a lot more. One suggestion I've seen and liked was having the scaling change based on Rising Game level.



These are my more general thoughts on the matter, but I believe Wraithguard, Rebound and Claret to be the main problem children. These three skills provide sustain, higher DR than most classes and extra damage that's easily built up. So I'd like to see changes to these first if at all.

Re: Ghost: Suffering from Success - Mr.SmileGod - 04-27-2020

Full support for all of the changes listed. I'd love to see ghost lose its 90% of builds status after all this time. I'd also like to see duelist receive some similar treatment, because it's a big part of the issue as well... But like I said. These changes would all be welcome.

As for which changes, the only one I really have a huge opinion on is the 10%-30% for Wraithguard based on armor type. I'd rather see that than completely keep heavies from using the skill to any benefit.

Re: Ghost: Suffering from Success - Hanzo - 04-27-2020

I don't agree with the proposed changes to CC, honestly. Mostly because such a change would be also bagging people who don't instantly cap claret call with one ability. If anything, if it is going to be changed, that aspect should be targeted.
Likewise, you can make the case that FP sapping is too much as a balance issue (which I don't think is the case), but it thematically, fits very much. Likewise, having it removed would allow people to even more stray from blood magic, which is a big part of the class' identity. In fact, removing health absorption makes more sense, from an IC perspective.

Agree with everything else - though I'm not so sure about the scythe. Axes are already somewhat wonky on Ghost, from what I hear, but I don't know-

Now, I played Ghost since before its rework, and can't say which version of the class I like/dislike more. As it stands, I am on board for some adjustments (if only to have less people take the class and disregard what it ICly means to have it at all). I think that part of its identity might be restored by tweaking wraithguard.

Having its effects apply only to lighter armoured people is a 1+ for me - as having 30% of your already low damage taken away just feels terrible. Ghosts are supposed to dance with death, and not stand still and let themselves be whacked. As far as placing wraithguard behind you, and charging ahead goes - perhaps we could do something like having it re-appear at a random spot X distance away from the user. That would definitely be a nerf, as it could be easily cleared by AOE - as well as remaining an easy and viable target for others that might be inclined to remove it.

Re: Ghost: Suffering from Success - Autumn - 04-27-2020

Ill be commenting on most of the points brought up as I did earlier, I still strongly stand by a lot of these skills being toned down quite a bit, but I do think that Ghost has been nerfed quite a bit already, and while noticable, it is still probably the best class in the game simply because there's nothing it can't do.

Quote:Claret Call
-Clause about Claret Call's maximum level based on Ghost's level + 5 removed.
-Maximum Claret Call LV lowered to 20 for non-destiny Ghosts and 30 for destinied Ghosts.

This I can 100% agree with, but I don't think destiny flavored ghosts should get additional damage with it either, claret call is already very strong because it partially ignores DR, and currently I don't see any builds in Ghost that aren't just running it because it provides them a flat +40 damage to all their attacks, on top of the egregious DR it provides.

Quote:Sanguine Star
-Momentum cost brought back to 3M.

Sure why not, the scaling nerf itself was all it needed, the momentum cost only serves autohitters really who won't care as much about fleur.

Quote:Reaper Scythe
-Scaling lowered to 140% at max rank.

I do think that we should probably have it be at 160% at max rank, but make it scale 10% per rank. (120/130/140/150/160) so spiriting it doesn't give us a 200% spammable autohit that does magic damage.

It can do bigger amounts of damage because it can consume your claret call if you're hitting a guarding target, which is not always a good thing.

Quote:Rebound
-FP absorption removed.

1000000000% agree, please remove this, its WAY too good to set your opponent at such a disadvantage, while healing and rejuvenating your own HP and FP from anywhere on the map.

Quote:Wraithguard
-Damage reduction provided by Wraithguard based on the armor of the user (10% for Heavy Armor, 20% for Light Armor, 30% for Unarmored or No Bonus for Heavy Armor, 15% for Light Armor and 30% for Unarmored.) OR Damage reduction only be active if the user is within 3-5 tiles from the Wraithguard.

Wraithguard is a bit hard to balance, if you lower the DR too much it wouldn't ever be worth using it in favor of just keeping your 1v1 buff, on the flipside I do think 30% even for unarmored users is simply too much, if you lowered Wraithguard's HP to 50 per rank instead of 100 per rank it might be a lot more bearable, and a much simpler fix.

Re: Ghost: Suffering from Success - Shujin - 04-28-2020

Most things I can agree to with the only thing I have a opinion about is


Quote:Reaper Scythe
That move is a 180-200% scaling atk, in an AoE with decent reach. That move doesn't just need its scaling reduced but atleast a 2-3 round CD. Axes are incredibly strong as they stand right now.


Re: Ghost: Suffering from Success - Akame - 04-28-2020

I have nothing more to add that's been already said. I agree with everything in the opening post along with Walrus' addition.

Re: Ghost: Suffering from Success - Grandpa - 04-28-2020

I hate to play Devil's advocate, but there's something that I don't think many people are considering here. In nerfing claret call's level cap, you're also nerfing skills like ghastly strike and cut down - but mostly the latter. Ghastly strike I could see not really caring too much about that, but nerfing cut down like that seems entirely unnecessary.

If claret call were to change, I'd want to see cut down buffed - because making it go from a -20% phys and magic defense to -10% would honestly just make me drop the skill entirely, personally. It wouldn't be worth it anymore. Sure, you can make the argument that you can use the skill more often at that point, but in a battle of attrition (usually with a tank) are you really going to survive long enough to see the benefit of -10% outweigh the benefit of -20%? I guess, if you're two ghost tanks slamming your faces into eachother, but for everyone else... Doesn't quite seem fair.


Other than that, I genuinely don't think ghost needs all of this. Some of it, sure. But all of it seems overkill. All of the 'nerfs' anyway.

Re: Ghost: Suffering from Success - Shujin - 04-28-2020

Just keep the number of CC, and cut down the gained on hit damage by half of it, done.