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+--- Thread: CEL Evasion Buff (/showthread.php?tid=7264)
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CEL Evasion Buff - Sawrock - 09-17-2020
Make Evasion reduce damage by 1% for each percentage the hitroll missed the target. This would cap at the user's scaled CEL.
For example, if the target has 220 evade and the to-hit check on the autohit attack rolled 200, you would take 20% less damage. If you had 100 evade and the hitcheck somehow rolled a 50, but you had 10 CEL, you would not have 50% reduced damage, you would have 10%.
If this would be too low or too high for damage reduction, change the initial formula; Evasion could reduce damage by 2% per percentage, or evasion could reduce damage by 1% per two percentage.
RE: CEL Evasion Buff - Senna - 09-17-2020
SEE that sounds good on paper but that's also VERY abusable. This is pretty much telling people to build and stack evade. Do that and they'll be more durable than tanks which will kinda defeats the purpose of building a tank.
Because it's not hard to Cel dump into a cel scaling weapon type or spread the stats correctly to make up for it then evade stack to make sure you'll always trigger evasion for ungodly amount of random reduction. It's also not impossible for someone to bump Cel and get themselves +40/+40 Def/Res and take advantage of this.
What you're doing here is empowering Cel dump to make new wave of super tanks or Cel/evade stack abusing. At the moment, while it is annoying, Autohit keeps evade stacking in check. The only problem is SWA stacking, knockdown and random super burst damage that's almost inescapable. (Such as Evoker Charge mind spells)
I hate to say it but this adjustment will do more bad than good. Sure, it will make Skill a more important stats for autohit but it will also make evasion builds tankier than tanks themselves.
RE: CEL Evasion Buff - Sawrock - 09-17-2020
I have a 223 evade statscreen build. I had Southern Wind and Eastern Wind (not that the latter does much) stacked. A build that was made to-hit had 90% hit on me due to various hit buffs. This is only one moment out of many others where evasion can block others or is completely useless, or entirely in between.
But as it is right now, the super-tanks you're talking about already exist. Just stacking DEF, RES, VIT and having an autohit move with an appropriate fourth-scaling stat can be highly efficient; there's no variety to the damage you take since you're not relying on chance. You always miss your evasion proc, you always get evasion proc'd, you might even get critically hit a bunch but with consistent damage, damage reduction, and correct equipment you're flat-out reliable. Less of a swiss army knife and more of a swiss army sword.
With this proposed change, not only will people have to take CEL- which with the only scaling weapons off of it also use either STR, WIL, or GUI- you'll have to take SKI and LUC to negate the other evasion buffed characters and to dodge properly, as LUC is also needed for evade. So that requires four stats. Then you count in DEF, RES, VIT, which is seven stats, so then you'll have to manage your spread...
It'll basically make the current tanking still the same true method, but it'll buff CEL, to-hit builds (as they'll need SKI AND LUC to hit through the buff), while not making anyone incapable of dealing damage (as it caps at scaled CEL).
RE: CEL Evasion Buff - Autumn - 09-17-2020
I don't personally think that dodge should be a stat that is attributed to being purely a tank stat, the evasion DR from passing the check already is pretty substantial and there are certain skills and passives that can get a stupendous amount of evade in one go such as disengage, with an autohit's inability to trigger these passives they would be facing upwards to +60-65% DR if they were already unable to actually pass an evasion check. The answer is not to punish builds that lack hit in my personal opinion as having the option of not building hit is a very liberating thing for most builds.
In doing so you're doing nothing more than making dodge a tank stat, which with certain outliers already present in the game (Such as Snake Dancer) it basically already is. It would begin to be a nightmare to balance for certain builds. I think Celerity is already pretty strong as a stat presently. And situational increases to Evasion's DR are much more preferred than a scaling stat, as you're tying it to a number capable of fine tuning or balance. This is why I am presently a large fan of Ice Point Guard and Pre-ordinance.
What is celerity's identity right now? Well presently its the dodge stat, it used to be the initiative stat but the round robin turn order kinda messed up everything about that and its a little bit of a mess, however it is also presently a good damage stat given a lot of weapons majority scale it even though I actually classify it as defensive, and wind magic does scale up fairly well.
As long as dodge is currently countering basic attacks it'll always have a position (which it is with the likes of disengage/mirage walk/all of martial artist/bonder or SS)
RE: CEL Evasion Buff - Perdition - 09-17-2020
There isn't much you can do to dodge that it doesn't already do currently. As it stands now, dodge already feels like just another means to "tank", just you're trading def and res for cel and luck. Functionally, you're pumping up stats to achieve DR against skills and spells. Yes, you can dodge basic attacks, but with the game being so autohit focused that doesn't end up happening much in practice. Not to mention how swingy hit vs evasion ends up being. Someone either goes all in on hit and your evade vs their basics is near useless or they go all in on evade and your hit doesn't matter.
There's nothing that can really be done about that, though, because you can only either hit someone or not. There's no middle ground there. When it comes to tweaking Evasion DR, there's a fine line to be had there. With enough DR can essentially become a tank that also just ignores basic attacks.
RE: CEL Evasion Buff - WaifuApple - 09-18-2020
I think this is a bad idea, because in the end, as far as balance goes, it'll make everyone a tank. And to be honest, we get enough complaints about tanks even when it's not about them being overpowered. Because a lot of people find that kind of lower damage gameplay boring.
I do not want to see a solution to the dodge / tank issue that makes your options "pick tank" or "pick tank 2" like this proposed change would be. People aren't going to change their spreads, even if that's the hope - they're more likely to double down and suddenly all meta is tank meta. Build dodge? You're still tank meta because dodge is tank now.
RE: CEL Evasion Buff - Sawrock - 09-18-2020
The stat investment for such would be tremendous and heavily unreliable against to-hit builds, making to-hit actually have a purpose, and as stated in the original post, the numbers to actually determine damage reduction could be tweaked.
RE: CEL Evasion Buff - Autumn - 09-18-2020
(09-18-2020, 01:18 AM)Sawrock Wrote: The stat investment for such would be tremendous and heavily unreliable against to-hit builds, making to-hit actually have a purpose, and as stated in the original post, the numbers to actually determine damage reduction could be tweaked.
I'm pretty sure when you hard boil down to actual statistics this is very much currently untrue, you are using one frame of reference without the evade buffs in question I already mentioned, there are some really really chaotic evade buffs presently in the game that make even hit builds cry quite a lot when they are active, disengage + Miragewalk, chaotic form, Unarmored Prowess + Hare Stance, Night Shade etc.
This would get chaotic very fast, I don't think the goal of improving evade should be inflating evasion to such an egregious degree and dismissing it as "Oh we'll just fix it later."
I think how you currently improve evade is not by buffing it at all, I think you just make basic attacks seem more worthwhile as an option over the likes of autohits, probably by reworking some melee weapons to scale from Guile instead of Strength or something similar. Its not that basic attackers don't do enough damage its more like they don't have stat efficiency like autohitter tanks do.
Currently in the Evade vs Hit matchup, Evade tends to win currently given buffs like above, making certain classes more evasive instead of tanky allows that class to flourish with damage buffs, the likes of Flottement could see a rise in power again, or absolute pace being reworked to not actually be bad in almost any given scenario.
RE: CEL Evasion Buff - Lolzytripd - 09-18-2020
you know..... we could just remove auto hits and evasion from the game...
RE: CEL Evasion Buff - Sawrock - 09-18-2020
Hey Sawrock you fucking idiot, just suggest that defense/resistance don’t stack with the CEL evasion, it should only use whichever one is higher when both activate.