• Characters that exist in the game environment in an 'OOC' fashion undermines the RP environment and can create confusion about when and where it is appropriate to try to start RP with someone.
  
• Similarly, people behaving in an OOC manner or polluting the IC channels with memes and OOC jokes are distracting and have a negative effect on RP.
  

• The process for getting things approved and requesting them is vague. It is hard to see when someone gets something approved and for what reason.
  
• For this reason it is also hard to know if someone actually has some aspect of their roleplay approved, or if they're just making things up.
  
• Sometimes the lack of transparency creates a feeling of favoritism when someone is denied something, but sees others get things approved.
  

• The game often breaks down into friends only wanting to be around their friends instead of RPing with others they are less familiar with (for whatever reason).
  
• Could partly be caused by people breaking down the RP environment with OOC-like behavior or 'memeing'.
  

• People perceive the world as incapable of being changed or affected in any meaningful capacity.
  

• People perceive that there is a lack of place for their character to go, and positions in the existing world that their character can fill. (Not just mechanical Roles.)
  

• Rules for expected etiquette in situations of conflict only exist in vague terms.
  
• Playing as an antagonist character carries a lot of risk with very little in the way to bounce back; a single failure often carries extremely harsh punishments, including long times in jail away from meaningful RP.
  
• Other parties, including guards, can often feel like an insurmountable, infinite, and at times omnipotent force, stifling antagonist encounters and RP.
  

Quote:OOC Characters/Existing OOC

• Characters that exist in the game environment in an 'OOC' fashion undermines the RP environment and can create confusion about when and where it is appropriate to try to start RP with someone.
  
  
• Similarly, people behaving in an OOC manner or polluting the IC channels with memes and OOC jokes are distracting and have a negative effect on RP.
  

My Thoughts: I very much sympathize with people who feel this way. Meaning no disrespect to anyone, since I'm sure when this is done, it's not with negative intentions, and at times is distracting no one else. However, when it is done excessively and in very public areas, I feel like it is a large negative to people who are seeking to engage in more meaningful RP, and may in fact drive them away to other areas, even private ones, so that they can distance themselves from it.

Solution Ideas: The primary idea that comes to mind is simply to have more concrete rules on what substance RP in IC, especially public areas such as towns or the arena, should have, so that people grow out of making OOC jokes in IC channels, or otherwise being a distraction. 

Furthermore, as far as characters existing OOC, there should also be more well laid out restrictions on what you are and are not allowed to do while 'OOC'. This requires additional discussion on why someone goes into 'OOC' mode to begin with, however.

Quote:Applications for Events, Requests, Lore, Etc.

• The process for getting things approved and requesting them is vague. It is hard to see when someone gets something approved and for what reason.
  
  
• For this reason it is also hard to know if someone actually has some aspect of their roleplay approved, or if they're just making things up.
  
  
• Sometimes the lack of transparency creates a feeling of favoritism when someone is denied something, but sees others get things approved.
  

My Thoughts: Ultimately I feel this is an issue of clarity and consistency. The process has always been to contact a GM or myself privately, and while that's fine for the most part, it does create the issues listed above.

Solution Ideas: The first thought I had for this was simply to make a public forum here for player applications and requests, as well as guidelines on what you should do to get something approved or not. Establishing this forum would allow for greater clarity, allow review by both GMs and players to see what has been approved and what hasn't been (and why), and help correct the perception that nothing significant is approved.

Quote:Community: Cliques

• The game often breaks down into friends only wanting to be around their friends instead of RPing with others they are less familiar with (for whatever reason).
  
  
• Could partly be caused by people breaking down the RP environment with OOC-like behavior or 'memeing'.
  

My Thoughts: Cliques are not inherently a bad thing, but they definitely hurt RP in some fashion, especially when people only interact with their friends group in private areas. However, this is something that involves the community primarily - there is not a lot that I can do to resolve it, I feel.

Quote:World Rigidity

• People perceive the world as incapable of being changed or affected in any meaningful capacity.
  

My Thoughts: When we first announced eventmins, one thing that was asked and answered is that I was definitely open to people being able to take steps through them to change the world in a significant way. I feel like that has been forgotten, or that people haven't had the proper motivation or ideas to do so. In a lot of areas, though, this is my fault as well, as I haven't personally run events with the intent for something big to change and given players an avenue to participate, and have instead relied on the idea that players who want to see such things would rather take their own steps towards it.

That said, a lot of the time, when people approach me or the GMs about their requests, we hear a lot of the same things - I want to blow up X town/building/person. Not to dissuade anyone from going for such a thing if they desire it, and I am certainly not against such activities, but if feel you've hit a roadblock while trying one of these, just know that we have heard it a lot and it can feel a little low effort.

Solution Ideas: On the players' parts, if you have interest in causing such change, then I encourage you to make use of the eventmins. On my part, there may come a time where I will have to actually help steer or do some of these events myself. I also feel that the previously mentioned application forum would go a long way here.

Quote:Lack of Roles

• People perceive that there is a lack of place for their character to go, and positions in the existing world that their character can fill. (Not just mechanical Roles.)
  

My Thoughts: This is going to sound like a repeat of the last section, but again, I am absolutely open to people trying to rise up the ranks of the existing political structure, or to try and create their own. That was one of the goals of adding the roles system - to give people a foot in the door for contributing to the world in some fashion, and help them foster RP around it. However, it hasn't done as good of a job as I'd have liked.

Solution Ideas: This is another area where we would benefit greatly from an application forum.

Quote:Personal Thoughts About Other Things
Note: Nothing in this section suggests that I am going to change anything randomly. They are merely my personal thoughts and things I've noticed.

While I understand why it exists, I view the mentality of having to rush to max level and gear out to begin RPing their character to be a negative for a few reasons;

1) People feel like they can't RP when they aren't max level, leading them to spend more time grinding instead of roleplaying, which can exacerbate the lack of finding RP.
2) It skips over potential character development and puts your character right at where you want them to be, giving them less room to grow.
3) Max level characters appearing out of nowhere leads to characters feeling ephemeral and without much substance.
4) It encourages the same behavior out of other people, as they may feel excluded if they do not.

The general solution to this would be to require you to RP to actually progress your character. Mechanically this would probably be represented by level caps that can only be overcome by putting in enough effort in your RP, such as with in-game RP posts that are reviewed by GMs (for example) and given a 'gold star', or posts on the forum that can also contribute to that sort of progress. (Potentially 1 level = 1 gold star.)

I also feel like such a system would be met divisively by the player base - since it doesn't exist currently, it adds another roadblock to getting to 'PvP ready' status. It can also be a demerit for people who like to make alts for different character concepts that they want to enjoy mechanically, and may encourage people towards omniclassing characters, leading to a lack of distinct, fleshed out character concepts.

Quote:it's only a 'step' in the right direction but it's ultimately just... not really going to mend or change much in the end I feel? I don't want to be pessimistic about it, since this is the first time something of this nature has happened in like seven years.

Quote:OOC Characters/Existing OOC

• Characters that exist in the game environment in an 'OOC' fashion undermines the RP environment and can create confusion about when and where it is appropriate to try to start RP with someone.
  
  
• Similarly, people behaving in an OOC manner or polluting the IC channels with memes and OOC jokes are distracting and have a negative effect on RP.
  

Quote:Applications for Events, Requests, Lore, Etc.

• The process for getting things approved and requesting them is vague. It is hard to see when someone gets something approved and for what reason.
  
  
• For this reason it is also hard to know if someone actually has some aspect of their roleplay approved, or if they're just making things up.
  
  
• Sometimes the lack of transparency creates a feeling of favoritism when someone is denied something, but sees others get things approved.
  

Quote:Community: Cliques

• The game often breaks down into friends only wanting to be around their friends instead of RPing with others they are less familiar with (for whatever reason).
  
  
• Could partly be caused by people breaking down the RP environment with OOC-like behavior or 'memeing'.
  

Quote:World Rigidity

• People perceive the world as incapable of being changed or affected in any meaningful capacity.
  Lack of Roles
  • People perceive that there is a lack of place for their character to go, and positions in the existing world that their character can fill. (Not just mechanical Roles.)
    

Quote:Conflict, Rules of Engagement

• Rules for expected etiquette in situations of conflict only exist in vague terms.
  
  
• Playing as an antagonist character carries a lot of risk with very little in the way to bounce back; a single failure often carries extremely harsh punishments, including long times in jail away from meaningful RP.
  
  
• Other parties, including guards, can often feel like an insurmountable, infinite, and at times omnipotent force, stifling antagonist encounters and RP.
  

Quote:Personal Thoughts About Other Things
1) People feel like they can't RP when they aren't max level, leading them to spend more time grinding instead of roleplaying, which can exacerbate the lack of finding RP.

2) It skips over potential character development and puts your character right at where you want them to be, giving them less room to grow.
3) Max level characters appearing out of nowhere leads to characters feeling ephemeral and without much substance.
4) It encourages the same behavior out of other people, as they may feel excluded if they do not.

(10-23-2020, 12:41 AM)FatherCrixius Wrote: Point one, SL2 is a game that does not take itself very seriously, and neither do the players. This is the only setting with MMO-esque recurring events and incredibly bland settings that lend themselves to no particular vibe. I'm fine with OOC being excluded from certain areas, but it just won't be very popular or heeded. There have been times where I've disturbed roleplay for a comedic break or what not, whilst I was on call with virtually every one else in the scene. Sometimes it's welcome, and it's uncommon enough that one has to read a room before throwing their foot in their mouths. Historically? People that oppose these breaks are branded rp elitists, who were so mesmerised with their slice of life one say / 5 minute pause ARR PEE that they would vocally oppose the presence of OOC backdroppers.  That is not to say there aren't unwelcome breaks, I am sure many no prompts on PvP have been pressed, or some [OOC] tagged characters drag through a scene, but it's not something that has ever stopped me from interaction.

(10-23-2020, 12:41 AM)FatherCrixius Wrote: A lot of people are quick to call it favouritism, given the things historically given a go ahead. I will say some absolutely stupid things have been okay'd, and otherwise tame things are categorically denied - Such as skateboards and zippers, in a sense that comes across entirely arbitrary in contrast to everything else amidst setting. I could entirely see it, but knowing none of the GM's personally I won't comment.

(10-23-2020, 12:41 AM)FatherCrixius Wrote: People have friends. Clique rp is generally justified through public RP being both monotonous and developmentally neutral, shallow and superficial. I will preach from the hill tops that this is a matter of setting and players discarding their IC's too easily, and not just 'Your clique doesn't like mine.' as quality rp is far too rare for even the most stubborn of people to discard. Again I think you are weighing 'memeing' far too heavily. Our topical conversation can only go so deep when we are but acquaintances at a place shallow enough to be described with 'An arena.' or 'Dock town.' Hencewhy player housing is so successful by comparison. I believe it well within your power to remove hermits from their shells, just not by smacking them on the wrist.

(10-23-2020, 12:41 AM)FatherCrixius Wrote: Eventmins are anything but a solution to this problem. The world is fluid only when it serves to sweep up the results of some dramatized event. However many times hospital was bombed, The falcons attack arena, what have you is swiftly forgotten as if consequence was but an afterthought; And no eventmin will be able to remedy this global prerogative. This exists due to a lack of actors, consequence, and reactions. For instance, there are no wars, no politics, feuds or ongoing damaged relations with anywhere else. Everything is just peachy. Should some player have the go-ahead to intentionally sabotage relations with terroristic actions in another continent? There is expected to be no consequence, and the event falls into trivia territory. Next, the lack of actors. As you bring up

(10-23-2020, 12:41 AM)FatherCrixius Wrote: There is a key lack of actors. GM-Approved minor nobility is a pseudo-exception, but are rarely given credence and even rarer to be known about. There are no religious zealots, no subterfuge politicians out for greater office, and no feuding lords. Players don't inhabit the right roles, because water sourcing offers no RP value. I do not think this is a matter of there being dismissive gms, or that players are just too shy to ask ;  But that there's a clear lack of structure to sigroganan world. Nobody knows what roles could be attained where it not suggested by some authority, because no systems are in place. Players have to form their own roles around them, such as hospitals, adventuring guilds or even to a lesser extent the guards. If you want to sincerely remedy this, more lore is needed, as to how Sigrogana and other nations function; As well as key case examples and individual liberties offered to players to do something with this role, rather than just twiddle their thumbs expectantly. If players are not to take these roles, they need to exist in game somehow.

This key lack of actors in vital roles prevents players from reacting in any other way than slice of life monotony, and for sure stifles the creativity players would otherwise be able to harness.

(10-23-2020, 12:41 AM)FatherCrixius Wrote: I for one see PvP as a vital part of my characters identity. They don't have to be good, but their build has to thematically fit them like a glove, and I have spent many hours fucking around to facilitate this. I will say that the grind to 60 happens not because 'I must be ready to fight as I envision it', but the growth of 1 - 60 is literally too jarring of a transition for me to be cool with, whereas build to build 60 + Offscreen LE's allows for far finer control, and demonstrates the effort I put into making a character 'RP ready.' in much the same way of FI's and Profiles, a point I am sure I mentioned either on my post or the PM.
Maybe people who only play this game to PvP see reaching 60 that way, but 1 - 60 being 'development' seems lost to anyone but new players, and given GM insistence that player characters are average in setting; it almost feels disingenuous to suggest level ones grow to corroborate the backstory you set in place. Sure, they can mechanically grow stronger from 1 - 60, but doing two dungeons and doubling in strength just breaks whatever immersion SL2 has. The worst way to ''''''''FIX'''''''' this problem is to make grinding slower. Subtle, but seperate tiers of strength would be far more effective, aka exactly what people are doing with tiering their builds through LE's right now.
Additionally, there are players that try to capitalize on the underleveled. "KEKW"
Doing some form of RP reward system would be fine and dandy, but would not help the GM's biased mentality a lot of players feel, but may be worthwhile to increase the longevity of characters I guess. With walrus stepping down from the GM team, this process is also going to take a lot longer, perhaps unviabley so.

Now, some points others have pointed out to me, that should take precedence over those that you have presented;
A lack of mechanical tie in to RP, as suggested by miller, that a lot of mechanics are poor for the rp environment; Such as the regularity of black beast raids, the entire story, and the core gameplay loop of BDPs do not inherently lend themself to RP elsewhere. The former being some trivial but good for exp / murai minigame that happens however many times a reboot, and the latter a pivotal part of the gameplay loop that could see much expansion to facilitate greater RP. As they stand, BDP's are something you want done quickly and quietly, so your focus can be on better thought out elements of the game.
I think Ethan was the first to mention this one : The conflict between adding Mmo / stiff mechanics and improving the rp landscape of the game divides too much attention. My personal opinion is that SL2 should be considered a roleplaying game first, and a turn based strategy mmo second, but all the recent updates have focused on adding new content and features to the PvP system, which I shall refrain from commenting on here. No surprises the landscape has been stale for my demographic. I want to do things, not sit around and discuss PvP unbalance.
I don't remember who brought it up first, but do something about the guards.

(10-23-2020, 12:41 AM)FatherCrixius Wrote: I think the healthiest thing you can do for the game right now is clearly outline your thoughts, intentions, and perceived problems as they arise

1. Antagonist commits an illegal act/makes themselves known in some public fashion.
   
2. A group of players, whether guards or just bystanders in the area, form a party to fight the antagonist. This immediately means that the antagonist must either have a 4 man group of competent fighters of their own for anything like this, or avoid conflict entirely in all but the rare situations that they aren't heavily outnumbered for some reason, limiting their options.
   
3. The guards, or more guards, swiftly arrive after being notified IC and/or OOC unless this event is taking place in all but the most private or secluded of locations, usually leaving the antagonist outnumbered by multiple 4 man groups even if they brought a 4 man group of their own in preparation for conflict.
   
4. This outnumbering continues as a solid portion of the online player base flocks to witness the event (In most cases, unless the event is very small scale, again limiting options) until their is nothing more the antagonist can do other than surrender, be defeated in the conflict or flee on the players' terms or the terms of the fleeing rules.
   

(10-23-2020, 03:30 PM)Balor Wrote: So going to make this short.

1. If we're to make a difference as players in the world we need a more accessible venue to the lore in game and out of game. The wiki lacks details and a player shouldn't have to search through a lore question thread for confirmation. As an Eventmin trying to work with people many are unsure what makes 'sense' in the lore. So often many just don't do anything. While some may think more details is a bad thing. It creates a creative border to build within, and is more satisfying than making an attempt and being told 'no this doesn't work.'

A Google doc, or some form of compiled information of what details you have set in place that can easily be accessed at a whim. Would be a godly tool for newer players.

2. More transparency between GM's and the Community is needed. While I have spoken to a few of the GM's and have been on good terms with them. The community is detached from them, and they from the community. As Walrus says, not many of them are active on the game. The submission forum would be a nice change of pace, or even a monthly newsletter.

3. The community doesn't want a harder grind. Levels or mechanical rewards are not going to inspire people to stick to one character. Roleplay does. A sense of weight on the world. I believe point one would remedy this issue, because it would allow people to feel more comfortable pursuing a goal in the game. Because they would feel confident setting an objective within the world, and reaching out to achieve it.

4. If you wish to give us more mechanical challenges. Legend Ink rewards for Laplace Quests would be nice. Meaning that people aren't going through the tedium of legend extending over and over again. Perhaps even Laplace quests that grant players the ability to forge a singular 10*. Giving them a feeling of sentimental value. The level cap doesn't need a raise, and the grind doesn't need a change. Mechanically we just need more to do rather than recycling old content.

5. The Conflict and Rules of engagement stuff I like. Antags tend to get dogpiled from my experience meaning that often they shy away from public displays. Being able to lock down an engagement so long as both parties are consenting is the right way to go.

6. I feel that people are too harsh on the OOC crowd. When the server is full of up to 50-70 players online. We often blame the 5-10 that are taking a break for the day in the OOC corner. I feel like there are different problems afoot, and taking 30 minute breaks to just chat up people before I go to bed. Or go to run errands is a luxury I feel people are making a scapegoat. OOC shenanigans can be an issue. But I don't think they deserve to be homed in on as they have been.