Quote:"The default momentum bonus for Critical Hits becomes +2, and Fleur becomes another effect, I.E allowing you to not lose momentum on resist when landing a Critical Hit."

1. Build creativity is further enabled by encouraging more character builds, allowing for more character concepts to be properly represented mechanically. This also makes it so there's less of a "cookie cutter build" problem (in the sense that, you'd see the less of the same copy pasted setup that makes a particular archetype functional.)
    
   
2. Critical Evade becomes more important to bulid for, rather than a stat that's considered a 'joke' most of the time. This in turn makes the "mega doomwalls" less appealing to build for, making them put more attention into the Critical Evade stat rather than simply putting all their stats into DEF/RES and worrying for little else.
    
   
3. You finally get people to stop (commonly) bitching about basic attacks being garbage. This sounds like a joke bullet point, but I'm serious about it. How many times have you gotten a headache over people saying that basics flat out suck? It's hard to really complain about something that's decent or reasonably good (unless you're a certain Evoker enthusiast... I say this bit jokingly and with love don't worry <3)
    
   
4. You no longer have to nerf so many things into the ground for an entire archetype to be decent. That means you PROBABLY wouldn't have to nerf mages and doomwalls to the ground and go through the headache of sorting out every little thing on that end. If all archetypes are strong, then that means it's pretty easy to have fun in the game. The "rock paper scissors" feeling can stay, but it wouldn't be in a way that's overly apparent to the point you can predict every match up and making watching fights boring. Sure, there would be an advantage, but not to the point that it's so often a guaranteed win on one end I'd say.
    
   
5. Some classes that are considered kind of weak get a benefit from this. I.E, Boxer's Scharfe (the skill that buffs Critical with Schwarz Sturm) finally gets a more appealing use to it, but that's just a quick mention off the top of my head.
   

 

Things to account for if this were to be seriously implemented

1. Volcanic: You're gonna have to nerf this one if you actually make critical hits give +2M by default, I mean it. Currently it's 100% Fire ATK + Weapon Power protection ignoring damage on Critical Hit, so maybe you could just make it 50% Fire ATK + Weapon Power instead. The reasoning for this proposed change? Because in a world where basic attackers are almost always good, you don't HAVE to use Volcanic and could instead keep it as a thematic enchant or something that you can put on just because without crying about how useless it is.
    
   
2. Twin Dance: If this change were to happen, Twin Dance would become the go-to "meta" no questions asked. For reference, this is Twin Dance, the Rogue Main Class passive (https://i.imgur.com/MTFtF1S.png) / So how would we go about preventing it from going bonkers with the aforementioned system? Maybe it could just make it so your second hit doesn't get a critical hit's momentum tracking, but I'm not sure how hard it is to code that in. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. I'm just throwing out an idea.
     
   
3. Bloody Shift: For reference, this is Bloody Shift (https://i.imgur.com/KKQkGcP.png) / I mention this because Phase Fang from Phase Python is a Youkai Evoker that basic attacks and rolls an infliction check to inflict poison while also providing good mobility. This poison can reach LV30, the same as your average Wretched Oil from Hexer. Bloody Shift currently makes Youkai Evokes cost 2M to do, which would turn this into a 2M basic attack that inflicts Poison LV30. If you imagine this in a world where "global fleur" is a thing, you can probably see what I'm getting at. I don't have a good idea for this one chief, but maybe you could make it scale off a fourth of Phase Python's Level so it becomes Poison LV15 max? Or maybe you could just make it so Bloody Shift's exception are Youkai Evokes that make you basic attack. I think the second would be better, frankly, but I'm just spitballing ideas for this one since I'm not so certain. Unless you think Bloody Shift Phase Fang wouldn't get crazy, then by all means, just forget that bit.
    
   
4. Vorpal: Vorpal is currently +10 crit and 10% chance to ignore Phys. Def on a crit. In a world where basic attacks are almost always hypothetically good, I can see how this could get out of hand. You could make the Phys. Def ignoring effect a status that stacks up, similarly to Tarnada Charges, and then is consumed to do its effect. I know what you might be thinking, "wow the guy that always runs Vorpal is proposing a nerf for it" but I really just want basics to be worthwhile. Please.
   

Final Words

This change is pretty big so I can understand if you feel on the fence about it at first, but I think it would be worth thinking about/implementing. It could take a bit of work, but it could turn out pretty good I'd say! And then you could keep mages/autohitters strong as is. I think everybody would be strong with a change like this, with some rock/paper/scissors advantage here and there but not to the point match-ups are always blatantly obvious as to who the victor would be.

   

It would also save the trouble of having to implement a million basic attack passives to make them decent, I'd say.

   

So, what do you think? Please give your feedback and support in order to make this game's PVP and character building less of a heart-breaking nightmare!
 

Quote:The idea of Duelist's Fleur becoming another effect, and critical hits by default giving +2M has been considered at several points. In most cases it was considered to be a crazy idea, and that it would make things pretty horrible. However, a recent discussion in SL2 general amongst community members has brought to light that...

 

It actually isn't that crazy sounding of an idea anymore.

 

The reason it's being considered is because any basic attack build without Volcanic tends to be considered complete garbage, due to the following factors:

-You must invest much more stats in comparison to someone building autohits or magic.

Quote:List of benefits from the proposed change
 

1. Build creativity is further enabled by encouraging more character builds, allowing for more character concepts to be properly represented mechanically. This also makes it so there's less of a "cookie cutter build" problem (in the sense that, you'd see the less of the same copy pasted setup that makes a particular archetype functional.)
    
   
   
2. Critical Evade becomes more important to bulid for, rather than a stat that's considered a 'joke' most of the time. This in turn makes the "mega doomwalls" less appealing to build for, making them put more attention into the Critical Evade stat rather than simply putting all their stats into DEF/RES and worrying for little else.
    
   
   
3. You finally get people to stop (commonly) bitching about basic attacks being garbage. This sounds like a joke bullet point, but I'm serious about it. How many times have you gotten a headache over people saying that basics flat out suck? It's hard to really complain about something that's decent or reasonably good (unless you're a certain Evoker enthusiast... I say this bit jokingly and with love don't worry <3)
    
   
   
4. You no longer have to nerf so many things into the ground for an entire archetype to be decent. That means you PROBABLY wouldn't have to nerf mages and doomwalls to the ground and go through the headache of sorting out every little thing on that end. If all archetypes are strong, then that means it's pretty easy to have fun in the game. The "rock paper scissors" feeling can stay, but it wouldn't be in a way that's overly apparent to the point you can predict every match up and making watching fights boring. Sure, there would be an advantage, but not to the point that it's so often a guaranteed win on one end I'd say.
    
   
   
5. Some classes that are considered kind of weak get a benefit from this. I.E, Boxer's Scharfe (the skill that buffs Critical with Schwarz Sturm) finally gets a more appealing use to it, but that's just a quick mention off the top of my head.
   

Quote:Things to account for if this were to be seriously implemented

[*]Volcanic: You're gonna have to nerf this one if you actually make critical hits give +2M by default, I mean it. Currently it's 100% Fire ATK + Weapon Power protection ignoring damage on Critical Hit, so maybe you could just make it 50% Fire ATK + Weapon Power instead. The reasoning for this proposed change? Because in a world where basic attackers are almost always good, you don't HAVE to use Volcanic and could instead keep it as a thematic enchant or something that you can put on just because without crying about how useless it is.
[/list]

Quote:[*]Twin Dance: If this change were to happen, Twin Dance would become the go-to "meta" no questions asked. For reference, this is Twin Dance, the Rogue Main Class passive (https://i.imgur.com/MTFtF1S.png) / So how would we go about preventing it from going bonkers with the aforementioned system? Maybe it could just make it so your second hit doesn't get a critical hit's momentum tracking, but I'm not sure how hard it is to code that in. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. I'm just throwing out an idea.

Quote:

• Bloody Shift: For reference, this is Bloody Shift (https://i.imgur.com/KKQkGcP.png) / I mention this because Phase Fang from Phase Python is a Youkai Evoker that basic attacks and rolls an infliction check to inflict poison while also providing good mobility. This poison can reach LV30, the same as your average Wretched Oil from Hexer. Bloody Shift currently makes Youkai Evokes cost 2M to do, which would turn this into a 2M basic attack that inflicts Poison LV30. If you imagine this in a world where "global fleur" is a thing, you can probably see what I'm getting at. I don't have a good idea for this one chief, but maybe you could make it scale off a fourth of Phase Python's Level so it becomes Poison LV15 max? Or maybe you could just make it so Bloody Shift's exception are Youkai Evokes that make you basic attack. I think the second would be better, frankly, but I'm just spitballing ideas for this one since I'm not so certain. Unless you think Bloody Shift Phase Fang wouldn't get crazy, then by all means, just forget that bit.
  

Fern Wrote:

The idea of Duelist's Fleur becoming another effect, and critical hits by default giving +2M has been considered at several points. In most cases it was considered to be a crazy idea, and that it would make things pretty horrible. However, a recent discussion in SL2 general amongst community members has brought to light that...

It actually isn't that crazy sounding of an idea anymore.

Fern Wrote:

The reason it's being considered is because any basic attack build without Volcanic tends to be considered complete garbage, due to the following factors:
*You must invest much more stats in comparison to someone building autohits or magic.
*Someone building autohits or magic tends to benefit far more than someone buliding basic attacks, despite the amount of effort it requires to make a basic attacker generally speaking [...].
*Due to the amount of damage reduction stacking present in the game, in addition to the ""negligible"" damage basic attackers (usually) have, building critical evade is seen as not too necessary [...].

Fern Wrote:Volcanic: You're gonna have to nerf this one if you actually make critical hits give +2M by default, I mean it. Currently it's 100% Fire ATK + Weapon Power protection ignoring damage on Critical Hit, so maybe you could just make it 50% Fire ATK + Weapon Power instead. The reasoning for this proposed change? Because in a world where basic attackers are almost always good, you don't HAVE to use Volcanic and could instead keep it as a thematic enchant or something that you can put on just because without crying about how useless it is.

Fern Wrote:Twin Dance: If this change were to happen, Twin Dance would become the go-to "meta" no questions asked. For reference, this is Twin Dance, the Rogue Main Class passive (https://i.imgur.com/MTFtF1S.png) / So how would we go about preventing it from going bonkers with the aforementioned system? Maybe it could just make it so your second hit doesn't get a critical hit's momentum tracking, but I'm not sure how hard it is to code that in. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. I'm just throwing out an idea.

Fern Wrote:Bloody Shift: For reference, this is Bloody Shift (https://i.imgur.com/KKQkGcP.png) / I mention this because Phase Fang from Phase Python is a Youkai Evoker that basic attacks and rolls an infliction check to inflict poison while also providing good mobility. This poison can reach LV30, the same as your average Wretched Oil from Hexer. Bloody Shift currently makes Youkai Evokes cost 2M to do, which would turn this into a 2M basic attack that inflicts Poison LV30. If you imagine this in a world where "global fleur" is a thing, you can probably see what I'm getting at. I don't have a good idea for this one chief, but maybe you could make it scale off a fourth of Phase Python's Level so it becomes Poison LV15 max? Or maybe you could just make it so Bloody Shift's exception are Youkai Evokes that make you basic attack. I think the second would be better, frankly, but I'm just spitballing ideas for this one since I'm not so certain. Unless you think Bloody Shift Phase Fang wouldn't get crazy, then by all means, just forget that bit.

(12-03-2020, 01:58 AM)Balor Wrote: Okay first stop on the gravy train.

Volcanic isn't too good, it's a crutch. One that can be gouged out by crit evade, or by the fabled steel aura of a Black Knight. Not to say that it isn't strong, but if Volcanic is to be touched then the overall damage of basic attacks needs to go up universally. Or rather the calculations made more lenient to guile or to the base swa. Atm without Volcanic melee basic attackers against tanks are just resets for more potent autohits. Kensei-Combos, BK combos, etc.

Before we move on to a global fleur we should either bring up other basic attack buffing enchantments up to Volcanics level, or buff basic attacks up to snuff because with or without fleur as they are? They are underperforming and are with a little bit of effort easily negated down to sub 50 damage per hit.

Second stop.

Global Fleur, nah.

But there is a precedence for classes to have their own Fleur Equivalents that reduce the cost of main class skills much in the vein of Shapeshifter. We struggle for build diversity, but we also struggle for class identity and I believe that rather than giving everyone fleur. We can easily just apply it to classes as an opt in that would benefit them. As Jam above mentioned Bonder is a predominantly basic attacking class outside of the use of Youkai.

Allowing crits to reduce the cost of other main class skills by 1 once per turn you could warpstrike into pinball, into a move. Or take into account Black Knight with a refund of 1 to the next Mainclass skill used?

You could Move>Hanging>Crit>Crescent Rook.

Classes like BK and Bonder could stand to feel the same love as Rogue and it's subclasses, and Duelist do. However I don't feel any other classes design wise need it. Mages don't need it. Martial Artist doesn't need it. Boxer don't need it. But it's clear that Dev feels certain classes deserve momentum refunds, and rather than a global Fleur? These classes that are built with basic attacking in their DNA should see some love.


TLDR: Basic Attack numbers need to be looked at before we start nerfing their enchantments because we're relying on crutches. Not everyone needs Fleur, but a few classes could benefit and would fit their class identity more with momentum refunds.

(12-03-2020, 02:19 AM)Spoops Wrote:

(12-03-2020, 01:58 AM)Balor Wrote: Okay first stop on the gravy train.

Volcanic isn't too good, it's a crutch. One that can be gouged out by crit evade, or by the fabled steel aura of a Black Knight. Not to say that it isn't strong, but if Volcanic is to be touched then the overall damage of basic attacks needs to go up universally. Or rather the calculations made more lenient to guile or to the base swa. Atm without Volcanic melee basic attackers against tanks are just resets for more potent autohits. Kensei-Combos, BK combos, etc.

Before we move on to a global fleur we should either bring up other basic attack buffing enchantments up to Volcanics level, or buff basic attacks up to snuff because with or without fleur as they are? They are underperforming and are with a little bit of effort easily negated down to sub 50 damage per hit.

Second stop.

Global Fleur, nah.

But there is a precedence for classes to have their own Fleur Equivalents that reduce the cost of main class skills much in the vein of Shapeshifter. We struggle for build diversity, but we also struggle for class identity and I believe that rather than giving everyone fleur. We can easily just apply it to classes as an opt in that would benefit them. As Jam above mentioned Bonder is a predominantly basic attacking class outside of the use of Youkai.

Allowing crits to reduce the cost of other main class skills by 1 once per turn you could warpstrike into pinball, into a move. Or take into account Black Knight with a refund of 1 to the next Mainclass skill used?

You could Move>Hanging>Crit>Crescent Rook.

Classes like BK and Bonder could stand to feel the same love as Rogue and it's subclasses, and Duelist do. However I don't feel any other classes design wise need it. Mages don't need it. Martial Artist doesn't need it. Boxer don't need it. But it's clear that Dev feels certain classes deserve momentum refunds, and rather than a global Fleur? These classes that are built with basic attacking in their DNA should see some love.


TLDR: Basic Attack numbers need to be looked at before we start nerfing their enchantments because we're relying on crutches. Not everyone needs Fleur, but a few classes could benefit and would fit their class identity more with momentum refunds.

I do want to mention specifically in regards to giving other classes their own version of Fleur, there are only so many variations that you can muster thinking of before it ends up just being a matter of thinking "Why would you even do this" when they achieve the same goal regardless, there are merits to both your method proposed and to just one streamlined system, in that the former of which can be tied to class mechanics such as black wind or stalemate, and the latter is universally easier to understand and learn to play around.