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Misinformation and System Abuse - The Great OOC War Of Korvara - TCBlade - 09-07-2022
"A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on." - Winston Churchill
6:26 AM EST. Having fallen asleep with my laptop still plugged in the night before, I awakened to the sounds of pings from Discord. Checking my phone as I got up, I was shocked to find a couple concerned messages that something in my DMs leaked and some of those people were worried that someone was trying to get me banned. Once comfortable and properly awake, I sent a DM to someone I was concerned with potential involvement for answers.
This was the start of my morning, and one I was certainly not expecting to go the way it did. As a leader player, I knew about the potential war on the horizon, and I knew some would definitely disagree with anything I said or did. However, you can imagine my shock at seeing this. Several hours later, I talk to the player in question, Shivania, and we start discussing the matter at hand. Apparently I'd been told some misinformation by members of our community, and I was explained what was actually going on. At that point, once I got clarification, it was all good. We chatted about how things were going, but eventually we settled on one major topic at hand: the misinformation. We both agreed that we should probably oocly state what our ic intentions were for the future, especially in light of what was going on, and that's where this topic began.
Shivania listed off a set of concerns with what was going on with Geladyne, stating I was escalating things and being much more aggressive than Geladyne, and that I, and Meiaquar, wanted this war. In response, I'd responded with what I knew, which was practically the same information, but Geladyne was the supposed "bad guys" here, rather than Meiaquar. Issues such as falsely stated information that neither party had said, or if they had, not in the same way as stated, issues of who was actually the one pushing for things, of how people were reacting, of how people of each side were leaving their nations for the exact. same. reasons. It was at that point that we realized just how parallel the situations were. After some further clarifications and discussion, we had ironed things out and knew what the other side was thinking, about how both sides had, in essence, their bowls filled with the same food, but different brands.
I won't walk you through all the details, but when we finished the discussion, it was made clear that much of our information was false, that the barrier between ic and ooc interaction was blurring, and that folks were abusing the fact that all was "100% ic." People weren't talking when they should have, individuals in the community were spreading misinformation like wildfire, and people were being told "facts" that were actually lies, myself included. The same thing comes down to this potentially upcoming war.
While some false information is healthy for ic, and it keeps matters interesting, the issues begin when ic becomes so heavily diluted by ooc info, as well as straight up wrong info, that it blurs the line of truth and fiction. Nowhere has this been more apparent than the war. Turns out, from what we discussed, that neither Meiaquar nor Geladyne wants a war with each other, let alone a pointless one. Meanwhile, both are being told the opposite; "your potential enemy is pushing hard for it and they're the crazy ones!" Discussions, negotiations, and peace talks can't occur because the narrative of "them bad, us good" is consistently trampling the truth, putting a gag in its mouth and refusing to let it speak. More and more misinformation spills onto the path between, and both sides are stuck trying to wade through it, only to be met with more and more, a seemingly endless pool. And because what? People want war? It "keeps it interesting" in the long-term? We're far beyond that now.
Now, you might be asking, "Hey, Blade, why didn't you go talk to one of the higher-ups in Geladyne to sort things out in DMs?" I considered it, but I was told myself that no one was willing to do so. I don't know enough to say whether that was spread to them as well, but if I'd been made aware that was a lie sooner, I wouldn't be just covering it as it forms to a head. At the end of it all, the leaders of Geladyne, as well as our people in positions in Meiaquar, were just reacting to the information given to them. We either had no way to know it was icly false if it came from someone else, or if it was, "ic is ic," we can't call them out on it without metagaming. Like I said, don't know how much this impacted Geladyne, whether it was better or worse, but I'm quite certain they were dealing with the same things. I make the same assumptions for Telegrad and Duyuei. And leaders/reps from those countries, if that's not the case, feel free to state it's not so this very set of statements does not join the countless pieces of lies and misinformation that lay out there, festering and sapping the fun away from the game.
Well, what does this mean? Clearly I'm coming to the forums to bring it up and bring about change, right? Well, yes, that's the goal, but change is impossible to make when only one person, a pair, a small handful, are the ones trying to bring it. In the words of George Orwell, "In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." And I get it, it's an arduous task, but if no one covers it, how long will it continue to amount for? When, if at all, will someone else bring it up? Change doesn't start unless someone is willing to take a daring leap, a risk of sorts.
I've devised three solutions to deal with the war issue and how to go from there. I'll go through each, starting from most preferable:
Option A: The Big Red Button.
- We retcon part or all of the main issue, up to the point of the end of the first Beggar's Hole incident (I can hear the booing now, please let me explain). Major events, such as Wasgow/Beggar's Hole and Fairview being recognized should still stay, as they are unrelated, as well as any unrelated rp. It'd be wrong to rip any of the character building moments that weren't relevant to the topic away from y'all. We would just retcon the events leading up to the possibility of war because, frankly, if things were purely ic, things would not have gone the way they did. If war still might happen, and if people want to lead things back to similar circumstances, it will allow both parties a fair and comfortable opportunity to icly voice their concerns and speak without worrying as though a supposed lunatic on either side is starting things or going to undermine a discussion.
- More ooc channels (and some ic, probably) are kept between the leaders and people of government. This way, if something questionable comes up, there is the room to ask, "Hey, is this icly true?" and have the potential to get an answer. It would also help all the roles, of which are the most susceptible to misinformation being handed right to them, to ensure proper communication, and that if we do have another situation like this, we have the proper measures to either prevent it, or to narrow its impact.
Option B: Go Off With a Bang. Shivania's solution, with a little extra.
- Plan for a singular event to solve it all. The leaders themselves, regardless of who wins or loses, regardless of which side is which, should be left in office as it feels scummy knowing that someone in Geladyne, let alone myself, could be killed because of misinformation that they needed to icly act on, all with little to no knowledge that it was false. Gets the war over without penalizing either side unfairly for working with what they were given. Life resumes as normal.- Ooc channels are made, along with the ic. Same kind of situation as the last, as both options require a way to ensure misinformation does not spread, and if it does, nip it in the bud before it has a chance to flourish like it is now.
Option C: Council Is Now In Session!
- Regardless of how matters are, we schedule an ic meeting on neutral ground when it works best for those involved and anyone they want to bring. To prevent filibustering or getting off-topic, we find and designate a player willing to be involved that remains unaffiliated to any country (to try to reduce potential bias). Each side gets to bring up what they know and can remove the level of falsehood present while delivering their side's point of view. Everyone in the location would be on equal footing, so one side is checked while the other isn't, or a different side gets more chances to bring up their concerns than the other (as best as we can do). The situation is then resolved naturally, going strictly on what was discussed icly.
- Ooc channels could still be made, DMs could be called for, I don't know. Same kind of situation as both previous. You gotta increase level of communication to make sure this isn't a problem, even if it's oocly because people might potentially be mucking up things again on the ic side. As has been stated in another topic regarding recent events of a different sort, communication is key.
Of course, I just want to state that there are certainly other options, and I'm sure one is out there that appeases as many people as we can without compromising the integrity of the game. At the end of the day, myself and several of those I've talked to prior to making this post just want this slew of issues gone and dealt with so there's less stress on the minds of us all. If the war happens, it happens. If leaders or positions of power die, they die (and if I'm among them, I know what I signed up for, so it's whatever). Nonetheless, this issue cannot remain if Korvara is to succeed, and if it does, it has the potential to push players away from the game, if it hasn't already. So please do voice your thoughts and solutions, and please ensure this does not dip into the dark. This kind of situation is not healthy for the game, and the sooner we can address and solve it all, the better.
Edit for clarification: Situation wasn't enough on its own, but people were more so worried it was being used to try to get me into trouble. It was an image of me asking Shivania about something semi-jokingly, semi-serious that I'd been told by someone (and I'll keep mention of who out of it, with respect to them).
Major Edit #2: I have been informed that a few people believe I'm trying to use the idea of a retcon to get out of the situation. I should start that I put it on the table as a potential option because it would wipe the slate clean and give a fair chance for everyone to do things again without the current clouds of lies, deceit, and misinformation currently in their minds. If it came off as that, I apologize, as that was not my intent with that. At the end of the day, whatever happens will happen, but it was just an idea that popped into my mind that could work, given the severity of it all. If you still want screenshots, Shujin gave me permission, so let me know.
RE: Misinformation and System Abuse - The Great OOC War Of Korvara - WaifuApple - 09-07-2022
Ayenne of Duyuei, here. The idea that something that has had such a big, significant effect on the past while of roleplay should just be retconned seems entirely silly, especially since it has made up several meetings, some of which get counted as aid for tribal progression here in Duyuei, among other things for other factors. Quite frankly, we are in WAY too deep for this.
My belief is that we shouldn't steer the ship OOCly too hard, and thus should not pick how to resolve this based entirely off OOC. What works better ICly of the two remaining options? Well, it depends how you look at it. Do you believe you can wrap things up in one neat package with a single event? Can you make that single event happen through IC means?
What about the neutral territory idea? Do you have a place that would be considered "neutral" enough for this discussion to be hosted? Geladyne has offered Meiaquar a voice, perhaps Meiaquar could push for that voice to be made on neutral territory where both are on even terms.
Let's not set a precedent of navigating OOCly out of rough waters or dismissing all the IC under suspicions of what is and isn't such. If it's within both sides to resolve it in a way that feels satisfying, move towards that ICly.
RE: Misinformation and System Abuse - The Great OOC War Of Korvara - TCBlade - 09-07-2022
(09-07-2022, 09:13 PM)WaifuApple Wrote: Ayenne of Duyuei, here. The idea that something that has had such a big, significant effect on the past while of roleplay should just be retconned seems entirely silly, especially since it has made up several meetings, some of which get counted as aid for tribal progression here in Duyuei, among other things for other factors. Quite frankly, we are in WAY too deep for this.Fair enough. Like I said, it's the big red button. I won't deny it's sort of the 'extreme' option, but I want to put it out there as a technical option.
My belief is that we shouldn't steer the ship OOCly too hard, and thus should not pick how to resolve this based entirely off OOC. What works better ICly of the two remaining options? Well, it depends how you look at it. Do you believe you can wrap things up in one neat package with a single event? Can you make that single event happen through IC means?
What about the neutral territory idea? Do you have a place that would be considered "neutral" enough for this discussion to be hosted? Geladyne has offered Meiaquar a voice, perhaps Meiaquar could push for that voice to be made on neutral territory where both are on even terms.
Let's not set a precedent of navigating OOCly out of rough waters or dismissing all the IC under suspicions of what is and isn't such. If it's within both sides to resolve it in a way that feels satisfying, move towards that ICly.
It was decided that going to Geladyne would not be for the best since it could easily be a trap and holds too many risks. As such, somewhere such as Duyuei might be best. We went there for the summit, might as well go there again. Could be same location, could be a similar. I'll admit that it would probably take some agreement from the parties involved, though, so I won't say we should/are going anywhere specifically. Whenever I have the energy to properly make an announcement in the Meiaquar section and in our Discord, I'll be certain to mention it.
I do apologize if my post came off as trying to use ooc to get out of the situation, though. Certainly not my intent, but I could see why it could be taken as such. If the first option is taken, it'd be a one and done thing due to the circumstances. I just think something that's majorly ooc-based should have the option to be scrubbed clean, and if that means a do-over needs to happen, so be it.
Either way, fair enough points to be brought up.
RE: Misinformation and System Abuse - The Great OOC War Of Korvara - Soul_Hacker - 09-07-2022
I have to admit, I'm curious as to what exactly the 'OOC in IC' was, if it was severe enough to nearly get TCBlade banned.
RE: Misinformation and System Abuse - The Great OOC War Of Korvara - Shujin - 09-07-2022
Oh boy. Well here we go!
First and foremost, I want to thank Blade for asking me directly about these things, so I could quickly clear out any doubts with simple and quick context. People do love to post stuff out of context in this community and weave a story around it that couldn't be further from the truth. So no surprises on my side, but its always nice to have someone actually ask. It is much appreciated. In the end we are here to have fun together afterall.
Obviously I have no intentions to get Blade banned, quite the opposite, I was rather seeing him as one of the main victims who gets all these Misinformations carried to. I do not want to trade with him to have to listen to so many sources, while having a busy schedule, to work through all of it.
While of course I agree with most what Blade said above I want to clarify:
This is not about misinformations that have spread ICly, within the game. Those are good and a key part of intrigue and I super enjoy these kinds of things and working through them to find out the truth! It has been something I did for years, and something that I enjoy much more than simple PVP-mechanical resolution.
Some of my best and most memorable events happend around effective plotting and Information management ICly. this is FINE.
What the issue here is not the misinformations being handled ICly, but that they are spread OOC, in all the discords between the friends groups, partly with Characters that had no way to even know about it in the first place suddenly others that had even less way of knowing it know it, or entirely fabricated things that never happend in any capacity in anyway and most certainly not in a way someone should have even know.
These both things happen at the same time. The IC and the OOC and then they begin to mix and blurr to the point that no one knows whats going on anymore. That?`Takes away ALL the fun of IC plotting. Cause now it feels unfair OOCly, we need to work through stuff and see what actually makes sense. It doesn't feel good on either side, and it just makes me not take part in the conflict anymore, because there are no facts anymore that you can carefully lay out, without someone OOCly faking and lying evidence and sliding it into someones DMs, to help their on IC narrative or steer the ship into the direction they want.
So what are we supposed to do? Take all infos at facevalue even though some make absolutely no sense and RP as if?
->Then we spit on all the efforts people like Blade had made to prevent such. As it isn't possible anymore to see which information a skilled manipulator actively used ICly to cause all of this...Or which is just OOC propaganda and everyone taken it from their DMs into the game, and even share it between all their alts as common Knowledge. This isn't just Metagaming anymore, this is a whole new level. I feel OOCly uncomfortable to go against someone who was OOCly Shoehorned into a position he had no intention of being. Neither ICly nor OOCly.
Shall we just dial back and pretent that all of it didn`t happen?
->Also not possible as this well is already poisoned way past recovery, and someone will either not get the Memo or start it all over again. and it also ruins all the narrative we have already build in response to that. Which is actually pretty cool stuff, thats happening in between. And there are very likely a few people that have actually ICly on purpose manipulated some info in such a way. Which would have been a wonderful plot, but I can mot with good conscience act on such anymore as I feel most of the stuff has been made OOCly. Some made up entirely, other things gotten via Metagaming and again other things just never went through the trouble to let it ICly play out so there was never a risk for the char who spread any misinformation as that info existed in a limbo.
Option A?
I think it has way progressed past a point of return, with way to many people already "In the know", and that would only cause massive confusion. And I too would be booing. Rectons are always iffy and hard to pull off too in this large scale.
Option B?
My idea, originally, was just to play it out and bite the bullet. However, having open communications with the involved parties more or less serve it internally between them.
Obviously, that has the issue that many that would have in normal circumstances been involved to no longer do such and that is unfortunate. The upside is however that it would remain fair and Misinformation would poison that well if only the handful of people involved discuss it fairly between them. The misinformation could be debunked quickly.
Option C?
I do believe at this point what needs to happen is that the leader people should all sit down in a Discord and work through that mess. So Intentions and things can be clarified.
Overall I am just sorry that something that could have been a very fun plot, is getting ruined my OOC misformation spreading. Its ruining everyones fun, and I highly recommend for people who do that (usually no one has bad intentions doing such) such to talk as little about IC in OOC channels as possible, far less in open channels as someone will misread it and then the chain of misinformation starts. I know, no one gonna do this. But I wish people would start to seperate IC from OOC a little more. Communicate more when you plan something or ask for clarification.
To me this plot is sadly ruined. I decided to be 100% honest with my intentions in the DMs regarding what my actual plans were with Henrik when he asks, just so that there is fairness. This took away all surprises and plottwists. But atleast? Its fairer now. Still leaves a sour taste in my mouth. Espically knowing that people do start their little witchhunts again, trying to demonize me again OOCly for trying to get someone banned. Which certainly never happend. Just get off my back already.
This all just to clarify, I do not really care how this matter is handled in the end.
RE: Misinformation and System Abuse - The Great OOC War Of Korvara - BoberJones - 09-07-2022
i pray it gets better tcblade :pray:
RE: Misinformation and System Abuse - The Great OOC War Of Korvara - Poruku - 09-07-2022
As someone on the Geladyne side of things, I've just been taking it at face value IC and it has been fun. The people here don't want war, the Don doesn't want war. So despite misinformation, I doubt it'll become an actual invasion. It's just going to take a lot of diplomacy.
It's pretty funny to play an alt though and to hear people call us "Geladorks" and blame us for everything while the other side does the opposite. I want to say that I joined Geladyne because I wanted to be morally grey. I fully expected to be vilified IC, and it's fun so far.
We obviously can't retcon, and honestly I don't understand what you mean enough to speak on those two other options. Why can't IC take its course? Clear up OOC misunderstandings and hope to do better next time.
RE: Misinformation and System Abuse - The Great OOC War Of Korvara - TCBlade - 09-07-2022
(09-07-2022, 09:48 PM)Shujin Wrote: Oh boy. Well here we go!Thank you again for discussing matters in DMs with me when we did. It was genuinely frightening to me, realizing how much misinfo had gotten about as a whole. At the end of the day, whatever will happen, well, will happen. However, I think we can all use this as a learning point in the future. History is bound to repeat unless we understand what happened in some sense. It made me feel ill to learn about how much was actively being stated about my character that was drastically untrue, and I can only imagine what it'd be like to be Dev or Anhita, who've no doubt felt the backlash themselves. Or even to you, Shujin. It still irritates me about what you said, about how Natasha was being used as a scape goat when it blatantly was false. It's sure as heck not fair to you to have to hear that and act icly based upon that.
First and foremost, I want to thank Blade for asking me directly about these things, so I could quickly clear out any doubts with simple and quick context. People do love to post stuff out of context in this community and weave a story around it that couldn't be further from the truth. So no surprises on my side, but its always nice to have someone actually ask. It is much appreciated. In the end we are here to have fun together afterall.
Obviously I have no intentions to get Blade banned, quite the opposite, I was rather seeing him as one of the main victims who gets all these Misinformations carried to. I do not want to trade with him to have to listen to so many sources, while having a busy schedule, to work through all of it.
While of course I agree with most what Blade said above I want to clarify:
This is not about misinformations that have spread ICly, within the game. Those are good and a key part of intrigue and I super enjoy these kinds of things and working through them to find out the truth! It has been something I did for years, and something that I enjoy much more than simple PVP-mechanical resolution.
Some of my best and most memorable events happend around effective plotting and Information management ICly. this is FINE.
What the issue here is not the misinformations being handled ICly, but that they are spread OOC, in all the discords between the friends groups, partly with Characters that had no way to even know about it in the first place suddenly others that had even less way of knowing it know it, or entirely fabricated things that never happend in any capacity in anyway and most certainly not in a way someone should have even know.
These both things happen at the same time. The IC and the OOC and then they begin to mix and blurr to the point that no one knows whats going on anymore. That?`Takes away ALL the fun of IC plotting. Cause now it feels unfair OOCly, we need to work through stuff and see what actually makes sense. It doesn't feel good on either side, and it just makes me not take part in the conflict anymore, because there are no facts anymore that you can carefully lay out, without someone OOCly faking and lying evidence and sliding it into someones DMs, to help their on IC narrative or steer the ship into the direction they want.
So what are we supposed to do? Take all infos at facevalue even though some make absolutely no sense and RP as if?
->Then we spit on all the efforts people like Blade had made to prevent such. As it isn't possible anymore to see which information a skilled manipulator actively used ICly to cause all of this...Or which is just OOC propaganda and everyone taken it from their DMs into the game, and even share it between all their alts as common Knowledge. This isn't just Metagaming anymore, this is a whole new level. I feel OOCly uncomfortable to go against someone who was OOCly Shoehorned into a position he had no intention of being. Neither ICly nor OOCly.
Shall we just dial back and pretent that all of it didn`t happen?
->Also not possible as this well is already poisoned way past recovery, and someone will either not get the Memo or start it all over again. and it also ruins all the narrative we have already build in response to that. Which is actually pretty cool stuff, thats happening in between. And there are very likely a few people that have actually ICly on purpose manipulated some info in such a way. Which would have been a wonderful plot, but I can mot with good conscience act on such anymore as I feel most of the stuff has been made OOCly. Some made up entirely, other things gotten via Metagaming and again other things just never went through the trouble to let it ICly play out so there was never a risk for the char who spread any misinformation as that info existed in a limbo.
Option A?
I think it has way progressed past a point of return, with way to many people already "In the know", and that would only cause massive confusion. And I too would be booing. Rectons are always iffy and hard to pull off too in this large scale.
Option B?
My idea, originally, was just to play it out and bite the bullet. However, having open communications with the involved parties more or less serve it internally between them.
Obviously, that has the issue that many that would have in normal circumstances been involved to no longer do such and that is unfortunate. The upside is however that it would remain fair and Misinformation would poison that well if only the handful of people involved discuss it fairly between them. The misinformation could be debunked quickly.
Option C?
I do believe at this point what needs to happen is that the leader people should all sit down in a Discord and work through that mess. So Intentions and things can be clarified.
Overall I am just sorry that something that could have been a very fun plot, is getting ruined my OOC misformation spreading. Its ruining everyones fun, and I highly recommend for people who do that (usually no one has bad intentions doing such) such to talk as little about IC in OOC channels as possible, far less in open channels as someone will misread it and then the chain of misinformation starts. I know, no one gonna do this. But I wish people would start to seperate IC from OOC a little more. Communicate more when you plan something or ask for clarification.
To me this plot is sadly ruined. I decided to be 100% honest with my intentions in the DMs regarding what my actual plans were with Henrik when he asks, just so that there is fairness. This took away all surprises and plottwists. But atleast? Its fairer now. Still leaves a sour taste in my mouth. Espically knowing that people do start their little witchhunts again, trying to demonize me again for trying to get someone banned. Just get off my back already.
This all just to clarify, I do not really care how this matter is handled in the end.
I want to make a small addition to the issue. Since my initial post, another thought has come to me, and that's how we can keep it as ic as possible in the future. Obviously, policing on the game isn't gonna do anything but cause potential hostilities, and the matter of how much ooc involvement is necessary to keep the game free of ooc drama and lies brought ic is another bucket of worms I personally don't want to consider fishing with yet, given how messy that could ultimately be.
Nonetheless, thank you again for speaking with me in DMs and assisting in bringing this problem to light. Without you speaking to me on it, I don't think we'd even be properly aware.
RE: Misinformation and System Abuse - The Great OOC War Of Korvara - Shujin - 09-07-2022
I WISH I would be used as a scapegoat ICly, for such plots.
Thats super cool! Alas...I think this was sadly more OOC loaded than anything, so thats kinda sad.
RE: Misinformation and System Abuse - The Great OOC War Of Korvara - Bylamir - 09-07-2022
It's mentioned alot about Misinformation and OOC into IC but you don't actually go indepth at all on the matter. I think for clarity's sake, wouldn't bringing that up now be a better idea instead of keeping it incredibly vague? As well as how exactly you know it's OOC into IC and Misinformation as that's also important to the matter at hand.