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+--- Thread: 1 hit evade buffs rework (/showthread.php?tid=11050)
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RE: 1 hit evade buffs rework - Snake - 04-14-2024
Things that increase evade for 1 attack should make it so those become forced glancing blows, I agree. Even with Heavy Armor, tbh.
RE: 1 hit evade buffs rework - Miller - 04-14-2024
(04-10-2024, 06:07 AM)Shujin Wrote: One hit evades are usually considered among the worse buffs around, cause they compete with Buffcap. Making them not compete with buffcap though might make them too strong.
So what if we changed how they worked a tiny bit:
1 hit evade buffs are changed to-> Level% chance to turn a hit into a glance. Also works against Autohits.
that way it no longer competes with evade buff cap, and can be a useful addon against autohit meta giving dodgies a tiny bit of the much needed survivalbillity without fully making them untouchable.
It's not because they compete with buff cap though? Wouldn't that make all evade buffs period bad by that logic? It's because they last for a singular hit and that's it.
Miragewalk and the like just need to not be removed off of any simple interaction period, having it work for multiple hits would be fine and fix one of the major issues it has. Miragewalk is designed to be an accessible evade buff to people who aren't running a class with enough evade buffs to hit +50, not as an extra source of evade for these classes that aren't struggling to begin with.
You just need to make it three hits+ and it accomplishes what it sets out to do.
Quote:the only times it even does something is in very inferior Dodge builds/Unfinished builds to begin with.
Exactly, it doesn't do much for an optimized set up. But you know, that's... fine? You don't have to use or run these options if you don't need them.
Quote:# of attack evade buffs, is just a bad Buff in todays system. It was fine before, even powerful, when we didn't have a buff cap.
No, it was good before because every interaction that wasn't a basic hit didn't remove it at all. It was just a +15 evade buff against people spamming autohits until GR2 changed it to be actually removed against skills that didn't have a basic component.
Quote:I find it extremely funny how everyone agrees "Yeah dodge kinda sucks!", but when there is a suggestion that might atleast slightly push the balance back again cause there are about 25+autohits now: "Nah, I rather have it be how it is even if I get zero use out of it.
If you consider the posts prior 'push back' when they're in support of buffing these buffs, then I don't know what gives. A change to three or more hits would be pretty significant for how easily this buff can be applied in some circumstances; it'd just lose out in team fights and against multi-hit set ups or bash. Assuming that everyone is running an optimal dodge build with +50 evade buffs is also weird.
Quote:Why would you waste resources on, lets say a disengage for a 3 attacks puffer of 30 evade, if you could just use one of the evade buffs that do anywhere between 20-25 evade instead and use two of those to cap out.
Because some classes don't have those options? Ghost, a class that has the very same buff you brought up, has zero evade buffs outside of Disengage and what's generically applicable. There's also circumstances where using disengage to quite literally, disengage and prove to be a benefit depending on what you're facing and spacing.
Quote:It's inefficient, you can't tell me any of you is building a dodge character and calculates around 1 hit buffs to cap out on. And the rare times you might get some use out of it, people have very easy ways to get around it, without using multihit either.
Evade ignores are a bitch, yeah. But again this entire post is operating under the assumption that every dodge character is running an optimal dodge set up, which couldn't be any further from the truth.
Quote:Cause dodgies NEED to buff, to be in a reasonable dodge range. This is a flaw in the system, creating a scenario where the speedy people actually suck in the momentum economy, pseudo/fleurs just barely even it out.
This is true, but your suggestion would actually remove this buff from people who use enchants like Miragewalk to help reach cap. This is less than ideal.
With all of that said, I absolutely agree some of these effects need to be reworked but not in the way that you would personally want. These buffs need to be revamped to be at minimum three hits before it's dispelled considering it actually gets removed on every single interaction since GR2.
RE: 1 hit evade buffs rework - Shujin - 04-14-2024
No they suck absolutely because they compete with Evade Buff cap. After all, it makes them useless on normal Evade setups, literally useless. And as you acknowledge yourself that they are designed to help Inferior Dodgers and fail at that, because of the limited uses. But wouldn't it be better to just enable these Dodgers with Real buffs to reach buff cap instead, instead of having this silly interaction that barely works? Without needing to Crutch on Rouge, MA and Summoner?
It doesn't need to be a 3 hit buff, what it sets out to do, is just not great for build versatility. Cause you will always feel shafted during a Teamfight with it.
Quote:Exactly, it doesn't do much for an optimized set up. But you know, that's... fine? You don't have to use or run these options if you don't need them.We have to agree to disagree here. Everyone knows that Dodgers are inferior due to the systems in place. Having a System that barely useful for anyone being replaced with one thats useful for all, is not a downside in my opinion and an improvement. If only a very small percentage needs them cause they are so bad and unreliable, why not give them more reliable options? I am not saying that I won't take the buff from 1->3 hits. Of course that's a significant buff. Won't change the fact though that it's still inferior to real buffs and it feels bad to play it in teamfights..
As long as Autohits are as easily accessible as they are and so Hard-hitting, I feel some form of counterplay for Dodgers is only fair.
Quote:No, it was good before because every interaction that wasn't a basic hit didn't remove it at all. It was just a +15 evade buff against people spamming autohits until GR2 changed it to be actually removed against skills that didn't have a basic component.No it was great because with a Miragewalk Disengage, you had so much evade, that you could actually evade even the best hitters and force them to make a move. That it wasn't consuming barely mattered on skills, cause Evasion! was basically always triggered against skill spammers anyway with a dodger, simply for how people build back then. Often dumping skill entirely, cause it wasn't needed. the only times that slightly changed was when we started experimenting with today's system and the baby shoes of that.
Quote:If you consider the posts prior 'push back' when they're in support of buffing these buffs, then I don't know what gives. A change to three or more hits would be pretty significant for how easily this buff can be applied in some circumstances; it'd just lose out in team fights and against multi-hit set ups or bash. Assuming that everyone is running an optimal dodge build with +50 evade buffs is also weird.Again. I am not saying it isn't a buff. But I just think Dodge in general feels currently bad to play, and giving people more Option to reach buff cap for real, as the system is balanced around it, would make a lot more people happy, than this buff.
So yeah, this is kind of a "push back", towards combating unfair mechanics, just as Super strong autohits, that once again allow building Doomwall tanks with insane SWA with 0 Skill. Some of the strongest builds make use of that, and I think thats not fair not fun. It essentially just creates a huge gap between people who just play and create fun characters and those that ignore half of the defense system to give themselves a huge advantage in stats of like close to 15 levels worth of stats.
Quote:Because some classes don't have those options? Ghost, a class that has the very same buff you brought up, has zero evade buffs outside of Disengage and what's generically applicable. There's also circumstances where using disengage to quite literally, disengage and prove to be a benefit depending on what you're facing and spacing.I was obviously referring to the Evade portion of the skill, so you are obviously right here. But yes, again. Duellist is one of the prime classes that should actually get real Evade buffs, over Pseudo ones.
Would it be so horrible for Duellist to actually stand on its own as a Dodge Class, and then have my suggestion as an additional shield against Autohits? I personally think Duellist needs a tiny rework in that regard aswell.
Quote:Evade ignores are a bitch, yeah. But again this entire post is operating under the assumption that every dodge character is running an optimal dodge set up, which couldn't be any further from the truth.Yeah, my post is running under that assumption, because in a balanced world, this is what you would want to do. Making steps in that direction is important. Or are you telling me those Inferior dodge builds actually want to be unable to dodge, and wouldn't rather have some ways to get real access to buffcap with in their Class Combination?
I think we should aim to make buff cap generally more accessible to more classes without crutch classes. Ideally not in a "let me buff up for 3 rounds!" kind of way too. I think that would in the Longrun make way more people happy.
Quote:This is true, but your suggestion would actually remove this buff from people who use enchants like Miragewalk to help reach cap. This is less than ideal.Well we have to start somewhere, and most other things to get this system working have been already suggested in other posts. Such as Miragewalk returning to its old glory, Kensei at the very least getting some dodge support, etc.
With all of that said, I absolutely agree some of these effects need to be reworked but not in the way that you would personally want. These buffs need to be revamped to be at minimum three hits before it's dispelled considering it actually gets removed on every single interaction since GR2.
So yeah it would "remove" that from those people, but at the same time give them something more valuable. the chance increase they would get, as a flat chance to reduce any form of damage, this is actually pretty good. Then we can work and see what dodge setups need a little more support and fill out the blanks there.
I am also entirely fine with most autohits just becoming Great accuracy. But at the moment, some counterplay should come against it, and I personally just find it very thematic that an Oracle with Gainsight, is actually capable to predict a move, that was meant to hit them for sure and make it glance.