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+--- Thread: Characters of a greater fortune (/showthread.php?tid=11066)
RE: Characters of a greater fortune - Miller - 04-19-2024
I also don't like applying for 'just' increased levels. BUT for entirely different reasons; having characters go up to level 70 and like won't be able to mend the dissonance between narrative and mechanical strength, the extra 40 stat points would only serve as an extra buffer in one on ones but you'll still get rocked by Joe Rune Mage or Jane Engineer even with all the stats in the world.
With that said, I would prefer an alternative to be considered if there's a need for narrative/mechanical strengths to match up:
Give them access to character specific traits or hell, app only generic traits that tailor to the characters strengths and elevate them up a bit based on their inherent strengths. The example of The Mystic being brought up earlier is a great one; why can't they get a trait that puts them on par with an elf's healing or if not better? Sure it might be a slippery slope to consider stuff like this; but with traits, you can keep an application tracking them and revoke them if necessary/abuse cases come to mind.
Even with all that said, I honestly don't really mind the homogenization too much? If someone downplays my character because of mechanics, I typically don't really bother with getting myself invested more with them, but I can still see why it'd be a sore spot for many since it's pretty prevalent.
RE: Characters of a greater fortune - Ray2064 - 04-19-2024
(04-19-2024, 09:56 AM)caliaca Wrote:(04-19-2024, 03:15 AM)Cogster Wrote: I'm not sure how much weight my words have. But I'll keep it kinda brief, just to voice my own issues with the game. A gripe I've got is that people that have either been voted in through their roleplay or worked narratively for their position as a figurehead kind of don't actually really represent character strength that well.
You'd imagine that trying to fight the leader of a nation in a fantasy setting, a fantasy universe, would be kind of difficult. But you can just end up slotting in something like Engineer and you can kind of win most one on ones with some basic game knowledge.
Just a thought on this. I'm not sure it follows that these characters are stronger narratively than others. Like Harklan getting elected in was elected because of his policies rather than because he's the strongest Telegradian or something.
It was mostly the same with Dahlia- at her base, she's just a frail girl who can shoot bow good. There was nothing special strength wise about her ascent, and similar for Iosefka.
But I really get the vibe of like your last sentence? It **does** feel really cool for fantasy leaders to be dope and yoked, what about the thought of something like a relic system? Like make the Blade of the Premier an actual unique item that's strong or something.
etc...
Harklan pulling up with the omni-dad belt
(This is actually an idea I'm kind of down for ? From a narrative standpoint, having artifacts like those could also help to tie into the lore of Korv as a whole, depending of how it's approached- and I just find the idea in itself really cool, even if it could come with it's fair share of caveats. But I kind of want fear to be felt when , say, the Chief of Duyuei gets pissed and joins in the fray.)
RE: Characters of a greater fortune - Poruku - 04-19-2024
(04-19-2024, 10:05 AM)Miller Wrote: I also don't like applying for 'just' increased levels.
Oh yeah exactly. The issue with making characters "slightly" stronger is that you are not really putting them on a different category, they are still a normal character. So the expectation is that you can fight them, and maybe beat them. Any battle that would be like, a 1v1 between a level 60 and a level 70 would kinda feel terrible imo. Because they actually both have a chance of victory. But they both feel a little cheated if they lose. The 60 feels like it was an unfair fight. The 70, if he loses, would feel like the narrative fantasy was broken by game mechanics yet again. HOWEVER, if a character is literally meant to be too strong to be able to 1v1 at all, then it kind of makes more sense in my mind. It means I won't try to fight them, I won't think to fight them. But maybe I could take them on as a party. That would be enjoyable for everyone I think, even if they lose, due to a change in expectation. Yeah sure, my "strong" character lost, but it was a 2v1. This maintains the narrative power, while making the fight fairer. If I try to 1v1 them it will be just a beatdown where I am shown how strong they are. That's fine!
I propose tiers of power
Tier 0: Special Power
This would be an application to gain a unique trait of some kind. Due to technology limitations it would only be among the available skills in the game. For instance, giving the mystic the elf healing racial. It would be upgrades to the character that give them more options, but do NOT make them op, or give them more general strength. This means these characters would still be on par with normal characters.
Tier 1: Champion
People in this tier are expected to fight two people at once.
Give them something like double the HP, +10 to all stats, and 40% more damage.
Tier 2: Demon
People in this tier are expected to fight 3 people at once.
Triple the HP, +10 to all stats, and 60% more damage.
Tier 3: Legend
People in this tier are expected to fight a full party of 4.
Quadruple the HP, +10 to all stats, and 80% more damage
Tier 4: Demigod
People in this tier are not expected to be defeated. Basically like an event boss that isn't yet weakened, or a legendary enemy with a specific narrative weakness. Maybe they could be defeated by two parties of 4 that attack consecutively.
get 10k hp, double damage, +20 to all stats, and of course slap them with some overpowered abilities.
Of course, for each of these superior tiers, they could have access to special powers at the same time that make them more unique. This would include mob skills. Ofc these stats are subject to change, it's just a vague idea. Some testing would be required to balance each tier's exact boosts.
RE: Characters of a greater fortune - WaifuApple - 04-19-2024
When it comes to GMs playing actual characters that appear outside of the events they're made for, that being 'organic' is countered by the fact that they're ultimately going to have to ask for people's consent to do things for there to be any manner of goodwill to someone who is just severely more powerful than everyone else in an unachievable manner because the way they got there is through GM privilege. It's not going to sit well with people and can feel like their own experiences and hard work doesn't pay off, because you're always going to be overshadowed by the overpowered level 70. There were examples - the guard commander, in particular. But any time the Guard Commander could come out all eyes were on that. On this super strong being rather than the players and their own story. It can be very detracting even if you feel you have a narrative reason because everyone's going to be staring at you in specific, inadvertently neglecting others in the scene.
Applying for mechanical power can be a slippery slope, if Meranthe is anything to go by. There will be worries and cries of favouritism no matter who gets more power, unless it's, say, just the special roles (there aren't many left) because those got wheeled in and thus can't really come down to it. Everyone is going to look at their own characters and many, many people are going to think "I deserve more power" once you open the floodgates, and it will probably overload applications without a strict criteria for what dictates eligibility. It also lends more credence to the idea that you need to be mechanically strong in the first place. Most people who dislike the PvP system are going to dislike it for the same reasons, even if they're given that special power, because those reasons are still going to remain. If you got handily beat by an engineer you'll probably still get handily beat by an engineer. Those who like it will also hate it in turn because what already wasn't perfect has now been twisted in some way behind applications. You'd walk into a fight and suddenly you're faced with a random level 70. Would you have seen it coming? Would it feel good? Depends on if you read the application forums I suppose.
As for leaders, I'd prefer they don't become a demonstration of character strength. If your leaders are all very strong they're going to go about their agendas using that strength, and that doesn't have a good track record. I prefer our leaders just like the rest of us, in a sense. They've made it to the top and it wasn't through overwhelming strength, but through their RP, usually, retaining a resounding sense of mortality in that the only thing that separates them and us is their influence. A relic that brings strength is vaguely cool but also just feels like a token way to make someone strong who doesn't need to be. A leader isn't strong because they have the power to beat everyone, they're strong because they can pick their battles in a way that makes it seem like they never lose. Strength in leadership should be perspective.
RE: Characters of a greater fortune - Rendar - 04-19-2024
If there weren't already cries of GM Favoritism before this, there certainly would be after.
This is a net negative, and if this became a thing, I would want it, exclusively, for new characters that fill a role and aren't going to be just.. wandering the world as an adventurer that can be jumped (or do said jumping).
As Appo's said. If an Apped Level 70 walks into an event, the entire dynamic of everything shifts. It's not the normal playerbase vs the eventmin's plans. It's now a focus on the higher level characters getting the spotlight and the eventmin having to plan around "Oh. I have a Super Character joining the event. Fuck me I guess."
It's not fair to anyone involved... So let people be narratively strong at things they are good at during an event.. But allow it to have reason why they are narratively strong there. Power of Friendship. Malia drinking Go Go Juice that burns out her retinas. A character who is particularly attuned to a certain element, and it's their entire schtick, and they are in an area suffused with said element. Etc etc.
RE: Characters of a greater fortune - lalchi - 04-20-2024
I heard enough people complaining of GM/EM favoritism, and even DEV favoritism (before korvara was even a thing)
Calling "X sucked Y and so that's why..."
To know that it is just not viable and will just cause a huge shitstorm.
The things is, and that's mostly to how i see SL2 on a RP point.
Everyone on their level 60 is already a mega busted lifeform.
Every player characters are absurdly above the average person doing insane shit. (Unless the player don't want to)
So it's no surprise to see players making their character overpowered and act above everyone.
Because still on a RP standpoint, the few that beats them on PVP, would be engi or another build, represent a ridiculous low amount of the entire population of Korvara/G6.
The top of the ladder is full of crazy batshit strong characters. It just happens that among them, there's that one guy with his railgun.
I may be seen as an asshole to say that but
While PVP is obviously full of holes and problems.
How players handle their RP throughs PVP also falls under their responsibilities.
To the limit, i'd agree on the TIER 0 of Poruku suggestion, but that's about it.
RE: Characters of a greater fortune - Lolzytripd - 04-20-2024
(04-20-2024, 04:24 PM)lalchi Wrote: I heard enough people complaining of GM/EM favoritism, and even DEV favoritism (before korvara was even a thing)the other ideas of tiers, mostly to make 1vX's fairer could just be momentum/stat modifiers applied to party A or B in a "advanced battle options settings"
Calling "X sucked Y and so that's why..."
To know that it is just not viable and will just cause a huge shitstorm.
The things is, and that's mostly to how i see SL2 on a RP point.
Everyone on their level 60 is already a mega busted lifeform.
Every player characters are absurdly above the average person doing insane shit. (Unless the player don't want to)
So it's no surprise to see players making their character overpowered and act above everyone.
Because still on a RP standpoint, the few that beats them on PVP, would be engi or another build, represent a ridiculous low amount of the entire population of Korvara/G6.
The top of the ladder is full of crazy batshit strong characters. It just happens that among them, there's that one guy with his railgun.
I may be seen as an asshole to say that but
While PVP is obviously full of holes and problems.
How players handle their RP throughs PVP also falls under their responsibilities.
To the limit, i'd agree on the TIER 0 of Poruku suggestion, but that's about it.
RE: Characters of a greater fortune - Poruku - 04-20-2024
I certainly agree with lalchi. To clarify, I think it shouldn't be something just anyone can do. It should be done with a purpose in mind, and should only be handed out for a preset period of time, until said thing is done. Nobody needs to be powerful unless it's for an event, or to play a certain antagonist. They also shouldn't be participating in unrelated events.
Because everyone is already powerful. It's true that losing to an engineer doesn't mean you're not strong. I think it would just be a useful system to have for people to be able to do certain things they couldn't do otherwise. But if the reason is simply to fit your IC, then there's no need to get a boost. You're already very powerful as a RPG character.
What this kind of system would allow is for people to be capable of essentially making bad guys and running their own events without needing the aid of an eventmin, and also allowing those characters to RP with people in the world without the limitations of event-only characters. I guess that means in my mind, you definitely shouldn't give this kind of power to a "good guy", only to a bad guy. Because the balance of power is definitely in the favor of the good guys. The last thing you want as an antagonist is getting decked by an op hero without a chance of winning.
However I could also see it for nation leaders, in some cases. Or maybe each nation gets one champion or something, idk. But again, boosted character shouldn't be in events unless it's planned around them.
All in all, there needs to be a specific reason for it that isn't just for the IC, because then anyone could want power and go for an app. I see this as an opportunity to put more ability to run events in the hands of players. With a tool like this you wouldn't need an EM's intervention at all. This is something I would have liked to use for some of my antagonists in the past, like the Necromancer from Duyuei (where I had an EM give me a power boost). But after you've finished your thing, the power is taken away. Because it's basically impossible to make it fair for everyone if it's something you can simply apply for to give to your main character.
RE: Characters of a greater fortune - Snake - 04-20-2024
Sometimes you have to play around the game's limitations, not around how roleplay dictates how strong you are.
RE: Characters of a greater fortune - Blissey - 04-20-2024
been here almost 20 years (cumulative with sl1, etc) and idk if this community is ready for this level of permanent power, and even then i think i'd only be willing to trust dev's exclusive judgment on this.
so far with apps, people have been doing a fine job of not breaking the rules, though there have of course been outliers. gale and appo pretty much echo my greatest concerns, and idk how i feel about giving characters, despite their role powers, racial benefits belonging to another race permanently. no tea no shade ofc, but apps in the past have been denied on this basis (yes, i am also partially talking about my own recent one, but i haven't been the only one rejected on this precedence), so idk if the gms would be willing to go forward with that as a permanent boost.
now ofc in events and stuff, that'd be dandy in my book(ussy). if characters can have their narratively-sensible times to shine, without eclipsing others' contributions, i don't see this as a net loss. but it needs to be done with some level of conservatism. maybe this is something the gm team, if willing, can undertake as a project to develop a system around it for ems to follow.