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+--- Thread: Korvara's content, what'cha think? (/showthread.php?tid=11371)
RE: Korvara's content, what'cha think? - Shujin - 08-10-2024
(08-09-2024, 08:25 AM)Shujin Wrote: snip
(08-09-2024, 10:58 PM)lalchi Wrote: 1.) Speaking as an EM.Prefacing this, as usual, even if I might say some controversal things as usual, I mean no hostility towards any individual.
2.)I also need to point out.
The story of an event is not necessarily made out by the EM running it.
Some of the event you can see on Korvara can be request made by other players and in that case, there's a great chance that the story of that event follows the player request.
---------------------------
Bouncing on one point said by Shujin :
Quote:- Events that are not scripted from A - Z (minor simple roll d20, with minor impacts do not really count to me), but allow for the players to make decisions and shape the story, more D&D styled
- Generally a Higher Focus on Player RP, rather than the eventmin trying to quickly finish the sidestory, or beating the monster of the week
3.) When I did say i want to do something on those lines. Here the truth :
It's a huge pain.
Because SL2 is not a tabletop.
If it was, i'd have no problem. Sure i can adapt the lore and settings to the players decision by myself.
But in Korvara. If it goes too far off rails. You gotta make sure you don't overstep on other plans.
You gotta let the nation leader aware if it becomes big.
And maybe, MAYBE, get the GMs approval as well.
It's a lot of contact. It's a lot of planning. It's a lot of compromise and it's a lot of stress, for the EM and for the leaders.
Yes it's stressfull for the leaders, because they are not the bad guys here. There's no bad guys.
Their worries and demands are understable, because even if it's a game, leaders are held to a standard.
Believe it or not, but when an event where the nation leader has NO INVOLVEMENT AT ALL goes bad. It still falls right on their responsibilities, would be IC or OOC. (i've seen it).
And at that point. The small group is not possible to be kept.
Because if the event makes too much noise. The nation will acknowledge it.
If the nation acknowledge it, the leader does.
If the leader doesn't respond, the people, ICly or OOCly, calls for irresponsabilities.
If the leader respond, Guards steps on the event, it cause OOC tensions.
It's a pain.
4.) And you may say "well, it doesn't need to be that big."
I made an event, where a regular bear chased two players.
The two players ran to Geladyne borders where NPC guards are present.
I made the error to ping in the wrong place.
It almost became a shitshow. It was a regular bear.
I don't speak by theories.
I speak of experience.
---------------------------
5.) And now i bounce back to the request of war event.
And there's already been TWO WAR EVENT in Korvara.
one being Meiaquar vs Fairview.
the second being Geladyne and Meiaquar.
those two war event
ABSOLUTELY DID NOT GO WELL.
Perhaps it was not noticeable by some. But those two wars cause a LOT of tensions OOCly
between players
between EMs
between GMs
And even Dev had to step in at some point.
And the funny thing is that, in one of those two war. I had no involvement. ICl or OOC.
I had no character playing in it.
I was not in charge of the war event.
I was never contacted on it.
And I still got shot by a lost bullet in OOC. No one noticed it cause i kept my mouth shut and didn't wanted to add more than there is.
But it almost got me considering quitting the game.
You think you're prepared for war event.
We're not.
PS :
I may sound a bit harsh here.
But truly, i don't hold hostility to anyone.
Nobody is wrong on their statement or demands on that matter.
1.) I work off the points, as I am curious about some and have some opinions on others. I have been GMing for a game with over 200 people before, countless of times with countless of different group constallations for about 15 years. When I was starting out I remember how much I felt overhelmed by shit, I know that I made the mistake over overly planning stuff and overprepared, and how stressful it was for me when things just didn't go to plan or when you had to deal with a bad apple.
It became alot better once I knew the Lore and System by basically second nature and became even enjoyable and was able to Wing a lot of things. I know SL2 has a few weaknesses over the full text one, that I played in terms of presentation and worldbuilding, and I know thats a unique challange for an EM by itself. Though I would out of curiosity ask, how much experience you have to deal with the players, how many events you have roughly run, and how much experince you have with EM in game and if there was any prior experience in GM in other tabletops?
Just asking because there is a good chance, that with experience, knowing what you can and can not do, what flies and what doesn't that things become way more easier on you or if you talk as a seasoned GM Veteran who just struggles because SL2, is SL2. Simply cause I made the experience that being a GM for a while and learning the hang of it made it alot easier for me, but I never even seen the tools eventmins work with in SL2, so I can't really talk on that.
2.) To this I am going to say, that Players generally speaking, copy the Formula that they know. If they see one type of event being done over and over, they automatically will design events in that same design, because they live by example and think thats the only possibility. Even I would think that in SL2, because of how static it feels at times.
3.) Well yeah, Doing something high effort is a pain, duh. I don't think anyone really expected otherwise. Its always a PAIN to run something. And the more hoops and loops you have to hop through, to get something seemingly basic done, the more you hate it. I remember when the game I GMed for, for so long, had a change in headadminship, and suddenly they wanted all GM's to ask for approvals in a ticket system, for any storyline, if the encounter designs weren't too strong or fitting the ruleset (disallowing enemies unique quirks)... Many GMs quit, cause it became too troublesome and too soulless, and planning things suddenly took so much longer and was just a pain, and while the game technically still exists today, its basically dead. Not only because of this, of course, but there were many more questionable decisions that took the fun out of the game.
So, yeah...I know that pain. I know and understand it when it involves things that actually involve more than just the people involved in the storyline, or when it grows bigger. But most of the time, things were fairly inconsequential to anyone but the invovled party.
Not trying to throw flag on Dev here, but based on my experiences, maybe its a problem with the RP mentality design and how strict some things need to be followed, or a lack of real change in the world, but still being policed so heavily. That maybe the Focus shouldn't be new classes, but on creating an RP environment where these things are easier or at the very least more meaningful. SL2, I am going to say it, ALWAYS sucked as a Framework for RP. In G6 we couldn't even interact with the world. In Korvara we technically kinda can, but also not really. The only thing that changed is that instead of housing, we not have offical map requests, and some people can play ruler (which also happend in G6, just with our own stories to boot.) We haven't really moved away that much from G6 all things considered.
The cheatcode the Guards used for Bypass DL was also copied one to one to Korvara. "Teehee, No this is not a DL4 situation that wouldn't be fair, we just subdue you with 20 people!" ->10 minutes later "Yeah we decided to execute you, now that there is no risk for us anymore, haha!"->Translation: Its not a DL4 situation for us, even if you win. But we can force it on you any time we feel like it. That is blatant abuse of the rules in my opinion, but hey, I digress.
To finish the point off: I am going to steal the word "understable", cause I think that's the perfect word to describe this community and I think it's a funny typo.
4.)
Uh without throwing shade at you... But a bear chase is really not what I have in mind when I talk about smaller scale events. Too small! probably got nothing to do with the 2 invovled players...Unless they were like hunters and you played out that little scene for them, but given that they ran I have my doubts about that... Like this to me just sounds like an experience born from Inexpereince, if you know what I mean? Obviously I have no details, just going off the few words you shared about it.
And you are basically pointing out what I am saying-> It became shit the moment too many people were invovled. In my experience thats one common dominator in most shitshows that we had in the past. People that have no context being invovled in something they didn't want to be, but feel entitled to be in, and then blowing everything out of proportion. This only got worse since the age of discord where communication and misinformation being spread became so darn easy.
5.) Here is probably the most controversial thing I am going to say, no one needs to agree with it, It's a bit of a rant too, so apologize... But when people do not accept consequences, and it makes them cry very very loudly, its never the right answer to give them what they want if its not befitting the RP environment, but those people need to be punished as they ruin the game for anyone else who wants an immersive world. In my opinion, keeping these people is bad for RP and the health of the community, so why cater to them Specifically?
I agree that this community has BECOME not ready for these events. But I 100% blame the GM team for at least parts of it, for being too handholdey, protective and spoiling these kind of people so much that they could invoke powers of Time reversal or Godhod or Ultrainstinct Autonomous Consequnce Dodge, based on how hard they cried so that it became a valid strategy to save your character from another character, no matter how deserved it ICly was. The GM team shouldn't exist to Veto or prevent RP, they should only exist to ensure things go according to the rules and as fair as possible. (And not change or make up rules, based on how they feel at that moment. Don't act as if you don't.)
Not saying that everyone is like that, but the Fairview example specifically and Bruno's assassination during the 2ed war with more than 15 people invovled in it, kinda of had this vibe. I also understand that the GM's do not want to be too harsh on things, but they also shouldn't be surprised if it repeats then over and over, if its working. But I feel like the GMs Protect people from any Negative RP at times, and then being surprised that people don't grow on it is kinda weird to me. Loss is part of life. You appreciate things more, when you know the pain of losing it. And for the love of God, you stop playing characters that run their mouth all the time without selfpreservation, cause after the 3rd time having to start over you might understand what consequences are, or you are at the very least ready for it.
What I am trying to say is...That this enviorment for no Wars or ANY negative conflict, even when some clearly want this conflict, is based on a simple double standard mentality. "Good" characters will always benefit IC and OOC, while "Evil" characters will always suffer as they are not seen equal as Characters, yet they are very much needed to prevent staleness and need the help the most. GM's rule very often based on Emotions based on that, I feel. Its high time, there are more places detached from the 4 nations, with clear rules that they are not as handholdey by design, and let people go there if they want more "mean" Rp, without the protection. Then these that enjoy this can live in their bubble without dragging people that do not want that in. Probably the most healthy solution, even if not perfect.
RE: Korvara's content, what'cha think? - zericosmic - 08-10-2024
Oh boy war talk~!
Now I enjoy conflict, some of my favorite roleplay has been based on conflict (hugs and kisses to Matthewmps and his character Pinkie)
Now I wasn't there to actually observe the last war.. But I did have the (dis)pleasure of taking hours out of my time reading so many of the logs and reports and discord leaks.
-Personally- this community can't handle a full scale war.
Broken Friendships, straight up hate speech, metagaming (and a fuck load of it), straight up ostracization of members of either nations on an OOC level, OOC deception towards other players, and GMs.. So many fun things I have been informed about, I am not surprised people do not want war, because I am convinced if there was another one, we'd end up with about 20 people banned because of OOC foul play.
I will sooner step down than attempt to moderate a war on the scale of the previous one, because I don't think the meds I would need to take after it's all done would be worth the hassle.
RE: Korvara's content, what'cha think? - lalchi - 08-10-2024
(08-10-2024, 07:08 AM)Shujin Wrote: 1.) (...)
It became alot better once I knew the Lore and System by basically second nature and became even enjoyable and was able to Wing a lot of things. I know SL2 has a few weaknesses over the full text one, that I played in terms of presentation and worldbuilding, and I know thats a unique challange for an EM by itself. Though I would out of curiosity ask, how much experience you have to deal with the players, how many events you have roughly run, and how much experince you have with EM in game and if there was any prior experience in GM in other tabletops?
(...)
I've been EM since before Korvara exist.
Ran several event over G6.
Was in charge (with Filia) on the Snabd event.
Ran several player request event on Korvara as well.
And of course do the random small funny things like mimic chest.
I help other EM on their event when i'm available and they request help.
SL2 is not my only experience.
I've ran several text based roleplay. Have one in preparation right now in a french server.
And i have as well been GM in few tabletop RPG.
(08-10-2024, 07:08 AM)Shujin Wrote: 2.) (...)
3.) (...)
Nothing to add.
(08-10-2024, 07:08 AM)Shujin Wrote: 4.)
Uh without throwing shade at you... But a bear chase is really not what I have in mind when I talk about smaller scale events. Too small! probably got nothing to do with the 2 invovled players...Unless they were like hunters and you played out that little scene for them, but given that they ran I have my doubts about that... Like this to me just sounds like an experience born from Inexpereince, if you know what I mean? Obviously I have no details, just going off the few words you shared about it.
It's smaller than what you asked. But if THIS had this effect, it tells a bit.
The bear didn't appeared randomly. I actually played out the bear because of a player action and i decided to prank them with a wild bear. There was a context.
I made a ping (unfortunately at the wrong place). Because trouble caught NPC guards. And as EM, i gotta set a natural environment with the thought that the game doesn't just have the 2 player, but also other players around in capacity to react.
Even if the bear was meant for those 2 players AT START. I am still making a scenario in a table with 60ish players around.
As said. My standards is a natural environment.
If the bear has a goal set and the player runs. It's natural for the bear to chase.
If trouble runs into NPC Guards, it's natural for those guards to act.
And if NPC Guards acts upon hostility, it's natural an alert is given.
If I don't do this. If i don't make the surrounding react to the happenings. It breaks the whole purpose of having a player actions having any meaningful results. Positive or negative.
If it almost became a shitshow, it's not because players were upset to have a bear run into them.
But because the players who had reasons to act upon the bear attacking the border, wasn't let known.
The player answering to the NPC guards alert in the end, was a high rank player who has authority over guards and has every reason to step foot in, cause it's part of their job.
In the end, situation was solved peacefully. No harm done in final. And all players had chance to apply their RP and play their characters accordingly.
(08-10-2024, 07:08 AM)Shujin Wrote: 5.) (...)Nothing to add.
(08-10-2024, 07:08 AM)Shujin Wrote: To finish the point off: I am going to steal the word "understable", cause I think that's the perfect word to describe this community and I think it's a funny typo.
ME ENGLISH VERY GOOD !
RE: Korvara's content, what'cha think? - WaifuApple - 08-10-2024
For there to be any form of large scale conflict again, be it on the scale of the war, or scaled back to something the size of Fairview (which I don't really consider a war, but a conflict that went awry, again due to bad actors), a new system is paramount. That much was apparent after the first conflict to go wrong, but despite mentions of one being needed, one never materialised and RP went along, with more conflicts going wrong along the way.
If ever the community were to begin to try that again it would have to come after the implementation of a system for these things. That might never come - I'd like to hope it's being worked on, or will be worked on, because it has been something known as needed for longer than most of these conflicts, but without it, nothing on such a large scale is ever going to be worth it. And nothing on such a large scale should be pursued for that reason.
RE: Korvara's content, what'cha think? - Snake - 08-10-2024
PvP wars can't occur naturally; they need to be hard managed like events. The heated nature of this conflict should be minimized and closely monitored to ensure fairness. Most importantly, these conflicts should always end in a stalemate, where both sides win and neither loses, to maintain balance and agreement.
Alternatively, there could be an external threat, like forces from islands beyond Korvara attempting to conquer the mainland. However, this idea was vetoed by the GM team, and Dev can provide more details on the reasons, which he has already discussed. Dev prefers to leave 'content' creation more in the hands of players than his staff. Still, something I'd agree with. Things to unite the entirety of Korvara against a common threat would be more appreciated than not.
But beyond this, what are your thoughts on other elements that could help set a strong theme beyond wars?
I believe each nation should have distinct characteristics that set them apart from one another. They should have unique quirks, but lately, it feels like Korvara only needs three active places: Telegrad, Meiaquar, and Vale. The other locations seem neglected in terms of event activity or even general activity. In my view, this is because it's challenging to create diverse events for these places due to their inflexibility or the risk of breaking the "spirit" of the location. For instance, if Geladyne had sea Behemoths, it would clash with the themes of Meiaquar and Duyuei, which already have a strong connection to that concept. Similarly, if Meiaquar went to war with Telegrad, it would detract from what might be more appropriate for Duyuei or Geladyne.
You see what I mean.
My approach, as an Event Manager, is to avoid further homogenizing content between the four nations. I want to differentiate them so that players from each nation have reasons to interact with others, rather than everyone gathering in one place where all of Korvara's content is concentrated, and no one pays attention to what happens beyond their own borders.
Based on the places I asked for in the OP, what are some good suggestions for each of these places? Or is there something you'd like to discuss more privately to avoid spoiling it for others? Perhaps you have a long-term project that you’ve struggled to implement but that would perfectly fit the narrative of a specific nation?
The stage is yours to share your thoughts.
RE: Korvara's content, what'cha think? - WaifuApple - 08-10-2024
I think there's no such thing as it being challenging to create diverse events for each place. That's not the reason some nations are more active than others. Every nation has their moments, what was known as dead before can pick itself up and become active again with the right muse, and the right driving forces. Similarly, everything can experience slow months, or slumps in activity as a result of many different factors. These factors aren't the limit to creativity with regards to events, because if you're struggling with that, you need to get more creative, not less. In Geladyne the mere collection of books has been a silly plotline with arcs of horror, of combat, and of ambient storytelling.
Duyuei has just wrapped up it's latest behemoth and suffered from a self admitted situation in which the leader just doesn't have the time to dedicate to the nation, and was always looking for the right moment to pass it off. This is not a limit of creativity, either. This is not being unable to do a kind of event without stepping on toes!
There are reasons for the quiet in nations, but those reasons are anything but 'creative limitations', in my honest opinion. Duyuei has a lot of room to explore the dangers of the wastes, or tap into the spiritual side of things, and mystical things as well. There's a lot with regards to magic you can explore in the environment that Duyuei provides. Nature, too. What kind of whimsical creatures live in Duyuei, after all?
Geladyne has plenty of options, too - the aforementioned book retrieval, rampant homunculi events, hunting material for inventions, noble conflicts - heck, potentially rogue lances of soldiers, too.
Not to mention there's nothing wrong with some shared themes. You can share themes across nations without acting like one having it means the other can't explore those concepts too. A lot of this restriction seems self inflicted more than anything. You can do so much if you put your mind to it.
RE: Korvara's content, what'cha think? - Balor - 08-11-2024
People have ran events in Meiaquar that range from breaking up rackets, busting down bakeries full of drugs, and cracking down on underground auctions. There is a lot of character in Meiaquar, and something we wish to expand and build upon when the slum map comes along. It has been a slow summer on my part because IRL takes precedent over SL2 but once things are present we are hopeful that it'll give the playerbase more freedom to create content with the readily available EM's I have been in touch with.
I think I'd like more cowboy events in Telegrad. Or western related things in general. I find that at the moment it's a bit hodge podgey. With nothing being explicitly tied to the identity of the nation or community.
Duyuei has its Behemoths, and Geladyne has military drills and such. There is a great deal of diversity between nations as well.
As for the war, and like the reward of content I have very little positive to say about the War. Having had to deal with the fallout and steady the ship after several bans, step downs, and the like. If you want a war, go boot up Total War where you run less risk of people getting hurt. One needs to accept that this environment does not facilitate conflict and war.
I also wish to say that there are comments about "Good" characters get rewarded, but I don't think this is innately true. I have seen terrible people ICly be rewarded for being toxic manipulators and the like. I think it's more important to note that Good People OOC are rewarded for respecting others time and energy with their antagonization. That they spend more time collaborating with others to tell the stories all involved want, rather than inflicting themselves upon others.
If folks wish to ever move forward with conflict in RP environments they need to accept and understand that it is not something you inflict upon others, and is something you work on with others. Like a wrestling match, otherwise you will find much like in wrestling. If you do not work together. No one will be willing to work with you.
(Forums had an oopsie. Reposted 4 times. Apologies.)
RE: Korvara's content, what'cha think? - Poruku - 08-12-2024
I think the biggest issue is simply the dependence on people in power for events, both Leaders and EMs.
There is an expectation that leaders will "provide content" for people to do. Leaders of pretty much any faction, in fact. Very often when people join any faction, be it geladyne or a tiny group, there is this expectation that things will happen, and that only the leader can push things forward. I don't blame people for feeling this way; usually the grunts don't really have the authority or, most importantly, motivation to "make things happen". I've done this a few times: join a group, see where it goes, and play along. This is highly dependent on the leaders, of course. And although that's not inherently a bad thing, it means that "content" is going to be inconsistent. The biggest example is major nations, where a lot of people sign up as a guard/soldier/important guy, and then wait for events. In the meantime you can do some rp, but it's not like you're going to be rocking the boat by yourself. The amount of red tape to get something to happen on the scale of a nation, or even a small thing, is restrictive. So all this means that there is only a little bit of content to go around, because one person can only do so much, and there's real life and stuff and motivation fluctuates. This is normal. This is just a result of how our current system works, and I do think it puts a lot of pressure on certain people who already have a pretty stressful position inherently.
There is also the issue of Eventmins. Generally it's more fun when there's combat during an event, or at least the possibility of it. Without an EM present the stakes of any given event are severely limited. But even a little festival or whatever requires help from eventmins, and a ton of preparation both IC and OOC. There's a lot of work that goes into events, and that's why they are not as common as they perhaps would need to be. I'm not saying that they SHOULD be more common. I'm saying that they're not quite common enough to make people feel like there's enough content to keep them engaged all the time. In an ideal theoretical world, we could have a large amount of events, perhaps every day at multiple times, where people could go to be adventurers. And there would be enough of them that every single player in the game could sign up to one event per week. Currently, there's just not enough events for us to reach a critical mass- most people basically never play events. Of course there's people who don't really enjoy events, but that's another topic.
Basically, SL2 is like a pyramid. The players are reliant on people with more power than them for content. Many players simply aren't part of a group with active events, and simply don't have events at all, while others have the occasional event. I mean hell, even something like the Delvers which was meant to be a fairly common thing, isn't very consistent. I have more delves I could be doing but it takes a very valuable resource, that being motivation. In peak condition, with nothing else going on in life, I could probably do about one event per week and not burn out. Others are more prolific, and these days I've slowed down a lot. It's simply not consistent. And the issue with that is that people's motivation fluctuate in different cycles. So when someone is really hyped to play their new character in x group/faction, maybe they're going to experience a drought of activity. And then when there is activity again, they might not feel like it.
All these factors combined make it so events AKA "content" is something very inconsistent in Sigrogana Legends 2.
The answer to this issue is not to make more events, because we would probably need every single player to be an eventmin for "enough" content to be ran. And even if that were the case, we would run into the issue of overloading nation leaders and other people in power.
The answer to this issue is something else. I don't really know what it would look like, but that's just how Korvara works right now. One thing's for sure, it's not a problem of lacking ideas...
I do think the slums are gonna be a lot of fun. I think a part of the issue is the lack of consistent "problems" in the world. Korvara is a land where there are absolutely no problems outside of events. When a problem exists, people try to solve it. This is part of the premise of the slums, and why I think it will be really enjoyable, because it exists to circumvent this idea. In the absence of consistent issues, we are forced to rely on temporary issues for conflict. Conflict is what puts characters to the test, creates tense or emotional roleplay with higher stakes. This is why I play antags, but I think there is a lot of potential in SL2, lots of things could theoretically be done to increase the amount of conflict in the world without requiring the helping hand of EMs and without creating OOC problems.
I mean hell... What about the black beast raids? That was fun. Wouldn't it already be a huge boon to have timed automatic events like that in the game? Back in G6, many people latched onto the black beast stuff for rp, made militias and whole guilds around it, etc. You could have something like that in Korvara, you could even have one for every level 80 area. Lava lake eruption, Snow Forest winter spirit that threatens to advance the cold, haunted forest necromancer boss, and a small behemoth in the canyon. If we had these things happen regularly there would be something for people to do, a reason for people to band together ICly. I think the boss rematches are really cool, but the big issue with them is that they don't feel IC. It feels like something you do without a real purpose in character, so there's no reason to roleplay about it.
Anyway, that's my two cents on this.
RE: Korvara's content, what'cha think? - Neus - 08-12-2024
I don't want to derail the topic too much, but since the subject of IC wars came up, I wanted to offer my perspective.
Shujin Wrote:I agree that this community has BECOME not ready for these events. But I 100% blame the GM team for at least parts of it, for being too handholdey, protective and spoiling these kind of people so much that they could invoke powers of Time reversal or Godhod or Ultrainstinct Autonomous Consequnce Dodge, based on how hard they cried so that it became a valid strategy to save your character from another character, no matter how deserved it ICly was. The GM team shouldn't exist to Veto or prevent RP, they should only exist to ensure things go according to the rules and as fair as possible. (And not change or make up rules, based on how they feel at that moment. Don't act as if you don't.)
I don't think the community ever was 'ready' for them, beyond the very start of Korvara. Even back then, there were a lot of loud voices that came out at the first sign of a larger scale conflict brewing.
Ultimately the GM team doesn't actively try to veto RP; they are trying to keep things fair. Sometimes, people RP in an uninteractive way, sometimes they metagame or abuse alts/pets. Not referring to any specific situation, but there have been several cases like that.
Shujin Wrote:What I am trying to say is...That this enviorment for no Wars or ANY negative conflict, even when some clearly want this conflict, is based on a simple double standard mentality. "Good" characters will always benefit IC and OOC, while "Evil" characters will always suffer as they are not seen equal as Characters, yet they are very much needed to prevent staleness and need the help the most. GM's rule very often based on Emotions based on that, I feel. Its high time, there are more places detached from the 4 nations, with clear rules that they are not as handholdey by design, and let people go there if they want more "mean" Rp, without the protection. Then these that enjoy this can live in their bubble without dragging people that do not want that in. Probably the most healthy solution, even if not perfect.
I don't believe that it's based on any double standard. People are averse to wars because of the major conflicts in memory, such as Fairview or Geladyne vs Meiaquar.
This isn't because the IC situation didn't make sense, or because there wasn't a system in place preventing it from progressing. It's because there was a lot of OOC toxicity, often over petty things. This is the case almost any time 'big' conflict comes up. It doesn't matter what or where it is, or what the stakes are. It doesn't matter if both sides have a firm agreement on how things will go beforehand (like in Fairview, or even the Marauders), or not.
All it takes is one big argument and the shine is off the apple. I know in situations where ICly, I have been the catalyst for conflict, and people loudly complain OOC (be it over valid points or not), I typically lose interest in pursuing it much further - if anything stifles wars or conflict in general, it's that. No one wants to engage when people behave this way and make the experience miserable.
While adding areas like Law's End that offer a different experience than the existing nations is a potentially good idea, doing so under the motivation of creating spaces where 'things really matter here, and you can do everything people would whine about elsewhere' is not. First of all, let's be real - people are still going to complain.
Second, and more importantly, creating isolated areas with wildly different OOC expectations is harmful to the RP environment, because it makes it less immersive, among other reasons.
Balor Wrote:If folks wish to ever move forward with conflict in RP environments they need to accept and understand that it is not something you inflict upon others, and is something you work on with others. Like a wrestling match, otherwise you will find much like in wrestling. If you do not work together. No one will be willing to work with you.
I largely agree with you in principle. I also think that people (in general) should be more receptive to the unexpected, however.
RE: Korvara's content, what'cha think? - Druby - 08-12-2024
Following up to throw in my own two cents. Probably could start another thread on the topic, but at this point, all the previous posts are here, and I feel like the whole conversation would lose its momentum.
To, not so simply, throw my opinion out there, I have mixed opinions on what Dev's commented about the bad feeling people have about wars due to it being OOC toxicity. I say that in the sense that, I agree, the wars had a lot of that which soured them heavily, but I also disagree on the level that this sort of thing is unavoidable in the context of competition.
Breaking it down, any sort of competition is a zero sum game. There is going to be a winner and a loser. As a general rule (I'm sure there are plenty of exceptions, but I don't think I'm making some sort of controversial statement here) people like to win, and don't want to lose. Competitive games are all over the space, and I'm sure everyone here has played one in some form or another, be it Call of Duty, League of Legends, BlazBlue, anything where you're put in direct competition with another. And I'm similarly certain that everyone who's played these games more than a handful of times is going to have had a point where they just got upset over something that happened. Maybe a weapon choice or a character is just overpowered, maybe you feel like someone on the enemy team is cheating, or maybe the person you end up matched against is just plain better than you and nothing you do matters. This all happens very regularly in any competitive space.
War, as a PvP sort of event is inherently competitive. And you're not going to be able to avoid toxicity. I'm not saying that people can't just be nice to each other, and that things wouldn't be great if we could manage to tone it all back. But we cannot avoid it, or pretend like it's something an entire online community of random people is going to be able to stop completely. Toxicity in competitive contexts cannot be stopped, so it has to be managed.
This is why rules matter. If people want to have wars, there needs to be a definitive way for things to be run, and how things are managed. Something people can easily point to, or direct others to in order to keep people from going out of bounds of what is proper. Basic rules like only having one character involved/not alting, or having to pick a side, or how the war is going to be scored in order to determine a winner are all critical to managing this issue, which I feel was very much lacking in previous conflicts. Another critical feature would just be systems supporting nations/conflict, something like tangible resources or supply lines or anything so that conflicts aren't just a "we have more/better built people", though that will still be what they end up coming down to primarily. I am not surprised that people got upset or heated over competition, but I am surprised things were allowed to get as bad as they did.
These sorts of things are especially important when you consider that, the toxicity in some games of League happen over basically nothing. Nothing really happens if you lose an unranked game, and people still get upset there. When you look at it in an RP perspective, and suddenly have character IC, or narratives that one or more people may be heavily invested in... It's very easy for tempers to flare.
Stuff like this is why that, as a personal opinion, I feel like player-led politics are generally a bad decision, and one that should be heavily mediated by a governing team if done, which was not the case early on in Korvara's life. Going back to to the League comparison, I'm sure people are familiar with the concept that sometimes people just throw a game if they get upset. And, anyone who's been online knows that getting someone upset over the stupidest things is extremely easy in most online communities. You can very easily have teams or factions fracture apart, and while you can say stuff about how it can make for good narratives, it doesn't feel as good if it's just because two people disagreed on something ridiculous, doubly so when your average player probably has no part in that specific narrative as just a regular person with no ties to leadership.
A final comment on it all, I will do through one last comparison. I don't like some games. There's a very real thrill in extraction games like Escape from Tarkov or Dark and Darker, where you suffer permanent consequences for losing or dying. I will admit, I can see the appeal in having something genuinely on the line, and then coming ahead due to skill or tactics. That's an amazing feeling to have. But, quite frankly, I'm shit at those kinds of games, and I would not have enough fun to balance out the annoyance if I play those sorts of games, so I just don't. I stick with games I do enjoy.
I think a very major part of people's annoyance with consequence driven conflict, at least on this large a scale where it affects nations... Is just that there's no "opt out" button. If someone just wants to be a bar keep in Meiaquar or something, and has done so with the intent on never touching serious conflict or wanting to be involved, and suddenly finds out that their nation is at war, and now everything is practically revolving around it for the next few months at least, with possible serious RP changing consequences that they kind of have no way of impacting themselves? I can get being upset, yea.
If conflict and war are going to be an integral part of Korvara, one that is allowed and even expected to happen... That needs to be properly advertised, and people need to know what they're getting into.