+- NEUS Projects (https://neus-projects.net/forums)
+-- Forum: Sigrogana Legend 2 (OOC) (https://neus-projects.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=8)
+--- Forum: Balance Fu (https://neus-projects.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=11)
+--- Thread: Seriously, Buff Evokers (and LB) (/showthread.php?tid=1416)
Pages:
1
2
Re: Seriously, Buff Evokers (and LB) - Ranylyn - 06-23-2015
Quote:Please show me the last time you've seen an Evoker break one thousand damage.
Overload. All I need to say. But here's the math.
Evoker/GS vs GS/Hexer.
Daisengan Install + Death Knighting = +18 to 8 stats, + 15 to Vit (I don't think Daisengan adds +3 to vit)
Total Bonus points before class mods and stamps: 159
Bonus Damage to Overload from DK/Install alone: 795
Overload's Base damage: Will + 38 (R5) + Tome power + +10 (Evocation) x1.3 (Greaper)
Also factor in charge mind.
"Oh, but that's the absolute most extreme scenario!" Everyone always bases everything on the absolute most extreme scenario. The reduction limitation thread was based completely on luck based chances all lining up perfectly and sacrificing skills purely for that extra reduction. I never said they always break 1000 damage. I said they CAN.
That said, I feel like simply adding my two cents on the rest of the thread instead of arguing this point further: Lowering Evoker base damage in exchange for lowering the effects of resistances would be an interesting way of balancing this out. On the flip side, and I cannot stress this enough, Charge Mind basically laughs at the Resistance Stat due to when it is applied in the formula, so if we lower the efficiency of elemental resists, we need to do something about that so that you're not totally dependant on Evasion/Voidveil/Wraithguard against evokers.
Re: Seriously, Buff Evokers (and LB) - Sawrock - 06-23-2015
Isenshi doesn't work with charge mind. And to have resistances to all elements, you'd need a build specifically for it; all builds can be built specifically against. So yes, you can switch to another element.
Re: Seriously, Buff Evokers (and LB) - Ranylyn - 06-23-2015
"[url=http://www.neus-projects.net/viewtopic.php?p=8005#p8005 Wrote:Sawrock » Mon Jun 22, 2015 11:33 pm[/url]"]Isenshi doesn't work with charge mind. And to have resistances to all elements, you'd need a build specifically for it; all builds can be built specifically against. So yes, you can switch to another element.
I think you mean Isendo. Isenshi definitely does.
Re: Seriously, Buff Evokers (and LB) - Normal Username - 06-23-2015
Is this even a serious suggestion? If it is, I can only find myself agreeing in buffing LBs, they need more reason to be played as. I mean seriously, evokers are strong enough. There are just some people that hates it with all of their being, and thus, dedicated their characters in countering it.
Re: Seriously, Buff Evokers (and LB) - Neus - 06-23-2015
If you can post a typical setup to resist all elements, I can see about making changes to how high the resistances given are. I assume some of it hinges on Sayakana. Another idea would be to increase the damage reduction required for it to be considered 'resisted' (IE, 25% to some higher number).
Re: Seriously, Buff Evokers (and LB) - Soapy - 06-23-2015
There is no one specific problem plaguing Evoker.
As stated earlier, anyone completely unprepared won't stand a chance at all, but anyone somewhat prepared has the odds stacked heavily in their favor - at least in single fights.
Evokers are still the kings of straight-up damage in group PvP, although it still depends heavily on the opponents.. Hexers give up a small bit of that damage for debilitating effects (Wretched Oil, Black Bubble, Spirit Pain), and are generally considered to be one of, if not the strongest class in PvP.
Here's everything wrong with Evoker:
- Skill Point deficiency.
You're either spread thin in both damage and skill slots, or you're just limited in variety. Which is fine in theory, as most classes have similar issues, but..
- Elemental resists.
Most Evokers I've seen are only packing three, maybe four elements at a time. If you drop a CM Sear on someone that just happens to have 57% Fire Resistance, well.. It won't be much fun.
Hexer works around this with effects, Priest sidesteps it with Graft and Sanctuary, Void Mage is more about map control than damage, Summoner wins with variety and Wilglas negates this entirely.
- Guard.
Charge Mind? More like Guard Time. Nothing can be done to stop it other than HSDW Lazarus Wind, which means you not only have to end your turn in dangerously close range, but remain there until your next.
Hexer, again, works around this with effects, Priest isn't exactly known for losing battles of attrition, while Summoner, Void Mage and Wilglas are both somewhere in the middle of this. None of these classes have anything remotely as telegraphed as Charge Mind.
- Evasion.
Generally speaking, magic will never fail to be Evaded, outside of HSDW Lazarus Wind (see previous point). This is due to a lack of skill, a lack of hit buffs, a lack of accuracy, and so on.
See the previous two, for the most part.
- Resistance.
Less of a problem for Evoker than the other magic classes.. at least in theory. In reality, Priests and Hexers both deal a large amount of unresistable damage (Needle, Poison), and have massively increased survivability in comparison (Spirit Pain, Fellel's Fumble, Strangling Etacof, Sanctuary, Graft, Silent Prayer) so they aren't nearly as affected by it as you'd think.
Summoner can throw out Byakko and pray, while Void Mage and Wilglas essentially have no way of dealing with this.
- Silence.
Goodbye Charge Mind, goodbye Invoking. Unless you have Silent Prayer and stay far away from any Hexers, this will be the end of you. Especially against skills that do it as a secondary effect, such as Cutthroat, Black Bubble or even weapons like Tsukikage. I'd say the recent Screamer 'change' somewhat solved this, but I don't believe limiting an entire class to using the same rare weapon is too helpful.
Priest gets Silent Prayer, Summoner gets a few non-spells along with Youkai, Void Mage can still use frayed gates and Wilglas doesn't have any spells in the first place.
- Focus.
Outside of using Grand Summoner for the free +15 FP per round (which I still think needs to be addressed), an Evoker that relies on HSDW Invocations - the only real way to deal damage as of late - will not only find themselves quite literally burning Focus, but additionally feeding some to all enemies thanks to Capacity.
Priest gets the laughably cheap Curate spells, Void Mage has access to potentially more FP than Summoner, and Wilglas' only serious weakness shows its head.
- Damage focus.
The 'meta' has been more survivability over pure damage for.. well, probably ever since Magaisendo and Overload got the nerfs they deserved. Evoker is a class quite literally focused on pure damage output, with no regard for its own safety or additional affects (other than Intensify Cold) - meaning it actually falls behind in a damage race compared to, say, Hexer, which can do the same (if not more) damage, while all but completely removing the enemy's ability to fight back. (Since God Rod means Kel does more damage than Sear to the same target, I figured this would be a better example.)
Priest gets ridiculous survivability and more DPT, Hexers get survivability and roughly equal DPT with debilitating effects, Summoner gets an extreme variety of skills and effects.
And here's what you can do to fix it:
- I don't know.
I think lowering Guard's effectiveness to half (and the silly evade penalty, too) would be a step in the right direction, but I honestly don't know what else to do, and that's more a general grievance than one with Evoker specifically.
Re: Seriously, Buff Evokers (and LB) - Sawrock - 06-23-2015
"[url=http://neus-projects.net/viewtopic.php?p=8006#p8006 Wrote:Ranylyn » Mon Jun 22, 2015 10:47 pm[/url]"]Oh whoops, my mistake."[url=http://www.neus-projects.net/viewtopic.php?p=8005#p8005 Wrote:Sawrock » Mon Jun 22, 2015 11:33 pm[/url]"]Isenshi doesn't work with charge mind. And to have resistances to all elements, you'd need a build specifically for it; all builds can be built specifically against. So yes, you can switch to another element.
I think you mean Isendo. Isenshi definitely does.
Re: Seriously, Buff Evokers (and LB) - MegaBlues - 06-23-2015
"[url=http://www.neus-projects.net/viewtopic.php?p=8009#p8009 Wrote:Neus » Tue Jun 23, 2015 4:47 am[/url]"]If you can post a typical setup to resist all elements, I can see about making changes to how high the resistances given are. I assume some of it hinges on Sayakana. Another idea would be to increase the damage reduction required for it to be considered 'resisted' (IE, 25% to some higher number).
The "resistance" proc isn't an issue. This wouldn't change how much damage was taken, only the amount of Momentum it would take. Which is rarely ever an issue. Lowering the elemental resistance given by some items is a start, but again, it's only one of many issues.
Also, everything that Soapy said. Seriously, I hope you read that.
Re: Seriously, Buff Evokers (and LB) - Poruku - 08-31-2015
In my opinion, if in the lategame people are expected to have at least 20% resist to all elements, then elemental damage should do about 25% more damage than anything else. That means you get slightly raped if you have 0% rez, but you still take no damage with guard and evasion and 50% resist and all the fun things that exist to deal with this. If you just give them more damage, then you would need to balance out your resists in order to not get raped, so there will always be able to deal reasonable damage.
In the game Path of Exile, elemental resistances in the lategame are expected to ALWAYS be at 75%, which is the maximum. As a result, elemental damage from mobs deal about 4x more damage, but player elemental damage has ways to pierce high resistance mobs. This normalises the damage, since it means you can never face an enemy which will mitigate more than about 25% than your damage.
In the case where the enemy has 0% resistance, you can also go into the negative. This is equivalent to less of an advantage than when you face a high-resist enemy. let's do math.
100 damage
75% > 25% = from 25 to 75
triple damage
25% > -25% = from 75 to 125
1.67x damage
A good balance for sig might be around 20% pierce resist for a chosen element. This would make it viable for characters who use a single element for IC reasons.
TLDR if you base your strategy around something, you need a way to make that strategy reliable against the things that counter it, even if that means it still gets countered slightly.
Re: Seriously, Buff Evokers (and LB) - Lolzytripd - 08-31-2015
People aren't expected to have a Resist all elements build at 60, people who choose to be tanky do, and people who meta their pvp and swap build just to counter someone do.
Evoker doesn't need MORE damage, Evoker needs a way to strip Resistances
I'd suggest this kind of fix
Evoker earth spells cause a lightning weakness on enemies hit, Lightning spells cause a fire weakness, Fire spells cause an Ice weakness, Ice spells cause a wind weakness, and wind spells cause a earth weakness.
make this 5% per rank of spell, allow it to stack twice.
Add in hitting an enemy weakness giving +1m, this would give evokers a strategy