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+--- Thread: Boss? More like fodder! (/showthread.php?tid=2596)
Re: Boss? More like fodder! - Chaos - 04-24-2016
"[url=http://www.neus-projects.net/viewtopic.php?p=13389#p13389 Wrote:MegaBlues » Sat Apr 23, 2016 3:34 pm[/url]"]If boss monsters are buffed, I think they should be optional plus bosses. Don't forget to leave the game accessible to those who don't have the perfect setup.I think players have plenty of avenues and resources they can utilize if their stats aren't PvP-ready. Seriously, if you're going into something tough and you aren't taking advantage of the numerous items that give you an edge in dungeons and/or battle, it's on you for not preparing. In fact, facing a dungeon boss isn't even necessary for anyone that doesn't feel ready for them. There's enough alternatives for loot and experience to where the average player/grinder can safely ignore dungeon bosses until they're set for the challenge. (and no, 'spatial cores have godawful loot' has no real bearing when you can fight a dungeon boss without having to deal with a spatial core)
That being said, regardless of how 'accessible' these bosses are, the fact remains that most of them are boring and too easily dealt with. A solid boss should be able to dictate (if not significantly affect) the pace of the fight, and almost none of the dungeon bosses, save the Spatial Ravager and maybe the Shadow Guardian and/or Lava Slime, can do that.
That being said, while some of them will benefit greatly from Accel, not all of them should have 9 Momentum to work with. However, all dungeon bosses should have at least 7 momentum. I also think that boss fights in crazy dungeons could take a page from Gigas Rex's book and put down two boss mobs to deal with, instead of just one boss mob and a lot of mooks. (except for themes that require mook monsters) That, and give the other bosses the kind of overhaul that Spatial Ravager received a long time ago.
P.S. Let's also try to uncap the base stats while we're at it. Seriously, I think we can find an alternative to keep players from growing their base stats beyond 80 that doesn't involve limiting what stats the bosses can get.
Re: Boss? More like fodder! - Ranylyn - 04-25-2016
Chaos, I get what you're trying to say, but I feel your opinion is completely misguided.
Yes, to endgame players, cores suck. But look at the struggles of gearing up as a new player without any help whatsoever. People sell actual vendor crap (as in, iron versions of what you can buy from Yuna or Pink for 25 murai) for 500+ murai in their stores. Not all builds even have the stats to get into chests at all. Drop rates are pretty painfully meh. A core is, no exaggeration, easily 75% of what many newer players get access to for gear, unless you simply think "duuuur just buy shoes from Hikari, instinctively know where to go to get either an electric axe or a mugendai, and never use anything else until you get lucky." Sure, I've gotten lucky and come out of the tutorial battle with Shoes of Initiative or Swiftness, but I've also gone, no joke, 3 LEs without a hand option or pair of shoes besides NPC-bought crap purely since anything better than NPC trash happened to be overpriced to hell at the time. The fact that Full Clear bonuses are also an integral part of the experience now means that if you grind through a dungeon, not doing the core is simply NOT an option.
The fact that beasts, for example, or training day are things aren't excuses. A newer character will easily be overwhelmed by beasts because they're more powerful than any common mob of the same level (Seriously, go to a raid at level 1, no mercs, new character and good luck surviving against 3 long enough to take even one down with you.) Repairing scars? With what stamina? Your max stamina goes up as you level up, and at low levels you really can't repair for crap, yu may get like 3-4 scars in. And training day? Good luck affording the repeated inn access if you can't afford any gear. I can already hear the retort, "You get food from the tutorial, suck it up!" Yes, because 2% per battle (The actual recovery on bread) of 50-100 HP/FP is totally meaningful in any way/shape/form and not completely outclassed by the witch hat you get in the Jammer Caverns with giving that much FP every turn. (And also, if people just need to wait around for these scenarios to grind, it hurts RP because people aren't more active when it's not optimal.)
If bosses got new skills at 50+ like some mobs, that would be one thing. But you absolutely positively cannot just go "Got mine, fuck you" to newer characters and players like that. We have a hard enough time retaining new players as is.
Re: Boss? More like fodder! - Soapy - 04-26-2016
I'm pretty sure the high turnover isn't due to game mechanics.
Re: Boss? More like fodder! - Egil - 04-26-2016
"[url=http://www.neus-projects.net/viewtopic.php?p=13439#p13439 Wrote:Soapy » Tue Apr 26, 2016 9:22 am[/url]"]I'm pretty sure the high turnover isn't due to game mechanics.
This.
Let's focus on rewarding players who have stuck around and giving them a challenging, exciting endgame rather than going 'I don't want to alienate the noobs!'
Re: Boss? More like fodder! - Ranylyn - 04-26-2016
You're definitely partially right, but it's a combination of factors.
While a big part of it is many players from other games come to SL2 and go "Wait, wait, this shit passes for roleplay? I'm out." (And honestly, sometimes I find myself agreeing with them, seeing some of the crap that goes down at the arena sometimes, even if sometimes they just want the power to Assassinate 3 emperors a day and no, these people are dumb and I disagree) I've definitely invited some people who were turned off on the game specifically by some of the more elitist community members and the meta. (See: http://www.neus-projects.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2647)
You may feel I'm getting off topic, but it's relevant. Remember that guy who wanted standard 50+ bosses to get 10,000 HP just because HE personally burned through them too fast despite the fact that many players around the 45+ mark are maybe only doing 50 damage unless they were already LE'd with already amazing gear (or going with a Pure Power and Charge Mind setup, really.) Yeah. This is a great example of "um, don't ruin things for everyone with your elitism." I mean, it'd basically take a team of 4 Evokers between 15-20 turns, most likely.
My point is this: I agree with wanting an interesting PVE meta. I do, I really do. I'd be all over that shit. But this shouldn't impact lower level play. SL2's biggest mechanical PVE issue is being so dependant on procedurally generated dungeons for content, and as such, earlygame and lategame get pretty much the same content, which is brutal when you consider how other games do it. Because you can't craft completely distinct early and endgames, what affects one generally affects the other unless it's specifically coded to only happen at specific level ranges. Other games thrive on keeping the early game accessible while making the endgame raids intense.
And that's how it should be.
SL2, however, manages to walk such a bizzare middle line, where even the Jammer Cave can actually easily kill newer players. Specifically the Omega Jammer if you're alone (Not every new player will realize they can hire mercs or leave the tutorial with only one piece of gear or know that Stabilizers are trash and to sell them to buy curry for a request) and exploring casually instead of grinding on earlier floors, but most encounters kind of count if you're not using a Breastplate. As well, the people who sink a lot of time into character building (LEs, etc, I don't mean that in a roleplay sense) and farming for rare drops don't have much to do besides PVE simply since PVE can't keep them invested when it's literally all the same. What SL2 needs is more endgame specific dungeons, not harder bosses across the board.
Re: Boss? More like fodder! - Egil - 04-26-2016
tl;dr you didn't get the point of the topic
this being implemented wouldn't affect low-level players at all
*woosh*
Re: Boss? More like fodder! - Autumn - 04-27-2016
Bosses get different skills based on their levels, new player problem solved already.
Re: Boss? More like fodder! - Ranylyn - 04-27-2016
"[url=http://www.neus-projects.net/viewtopic.php?p=13458#p13458 Wrote:Egil » Tue Apr 26, 2016 5:10 pm[/url]"]tl;dr you didn't get the point of the topic
this being implemented wouldn't affect low-level players at all
*woosh*
I was addressing Chaos's point specifically with all that stuff about newer players and how they "shoudn't be bossing since they don't have the means to prepare so it's their own fault for not preparing."
*woosh*
Re: Boss? More like fodder! - Chaos - 04-27-2016
"[url=http://www.neus-projects.net/viewtopic.php?p=13473#p13473 Wrote:Ranylyn » Wed Apr 27, 2016 8:13 am[/url]"]I was addressing Chaos's point specifically with all that stuff about newer players and how they "shoudn't be bossing since they don't have the means to prepare so it's their own fault for not preparing."
Read it again. Nowhere in my post did I say 'newer players'. I did not even imply anything towards 'newer players'. Whatever you're trying to say about 'how newer players shouldn't be bossing...' doesn't even exist in my post, and especially not in the portion that mentions that people who aren't preparing for relatively difficult content are making it hard on themselves, and that players who aren't ready for dungeon bosses are not forced to go and fight them. What you are doing is twisting my words and inserting 'newer players' into it to get something that's not only completely different from the actual message, but has no real bearing on the topic. How, you ask? Again, this kind of revamp would not be aimed at newer characters to begin with.
Low-level characters can already find a decent challenge with simple dungeon bosses like we already have, and at that point, a Full Clear does not matter much when levels are easily gained from just a few relevant encounters. That doesn't really need to be changed, though you can argue that characters with a Legend Extension or a few under their belt should get the unfiltered version without regard to their level. For everyone else, however, most dungeon bosses rapidly lose ground to all the neat little tricks and special equipment that PCs obtain over the course of the grind, and by the time they're grinding for (what is currently considered) endgame content, they will be hard-pressed to find any challenge in most dungeon bosses. That is what needs to be changed here.
Re: Boss? More like fodder! - MegaBlues - 04-27-2016
I'd say that the reward for clearing a boss should match it's difficulty. It's no exaggeration that you can go through hundreds of massive cores before finding something worthwhile.
And now that you can't legally trade to your own characters? The chance of finding something good is even lower.