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+--- Thread: Modernizing Enma's (/showthread.php?tid=3912)
Re: Modernizing Enma's - Slydria - 12-22-2016
I don't think the effect itself is too overbearing.
If you want to think of it another way, this effectively does 25% Max HP 'damage' for the same time as three regular attacks/skills and there are plenty of attacks in the game you can take that will deal much more than a third of that amount (even to multiple opponents at that).
Also, it's not entirely without retort, like if they outlast the duration, the effect is squandered, as opposed to just doing the damage upfront where that's not a concern.
And as Sderg pointed out, it's possible to reduce or even negate the effect with some other skills (Spiriteater, Golden Blood, Gentle Torrent, Negotiate), albeit not that many.
And of course, it's still a spell so Silence can stop it in it's tracks.
I'm not against more counterplay for it but I think it purposely getting around things like Last Chance, Revives, etc. not only suits it but is in itself a counter against those that rely too much on those kinds of safety nets.
If 5 Rounds is too long, shortening the time frame you have to bring them down to 25% sounds fine.
If it needs to be more based on stats, then it being a Status Infliction vs Status Resistance roll is an alternative. (Though it'll be punishing if you fail that infliction roll.)
Re: Modernizing Enma's - Rendar - 12-22-2016
I think if it affects everyone on the field. Friend and foe alike, it'll be balanced.
Re: Modernizing Enma's - Kameron8 - 12-22-2016
Changing the spell to a griefing tool or something that equally benefits both teams when it costs 9m is unfathomably stupid.
Despite the lack of agreement on how to change Enma's, nobody has approached this thread even remotely considering it to be in a fine spot. So even if Dev decides to take it in his own direction, at least know that we all agree it can badly use a revamp.
Re: Modernizing Enma's - Exxy - 12-23-2016
Note: The ellipses in Sly's post mark spots that I deleted to give more context to what I was addressing.
"Slydria" Wrote:I don't think the effect itself is too overbearing.
If you want to think of it another way, this effectively does 25% Max HP 'damage' for the same time as three regular attacks/skills and there are plenty of attacks in the game you can take that will deal much more than a third of that amount (even to multiple opponents at that).
Also, it's not entirely without retort, like if they outlast the duration, the effect is squandered, as opposed to just doing the damage upfront where that's not a concern.
...
And of course, it's still a spell so Silence can stop it in it's tracks.
...
If 5 Rounds is too long, shortening the time frame you have to bring them down to 25% sounds fine.
If it needs to be more based on stats, then it being a Status Infliction vs Status Resistance roll is an alternative. (Though it'll be punishing if you fail that infliction roll.)
No duration was mentioned, although this would help somewhat in making it a bit more bearable (personally, I would just like to see it set to a 2-3 Round-Cooldown and -not- take affect if the target is already below and you fail to hit a threshold amount of damage, an example being: X is at 150/800 HP, which is a little over 18% of their Max HP and is hit with Enma's, causing them to get a status effect but aren't auto-KO'd for just being within the range of the threshold. Y then hits X for a certain amount of damage (let's say 48) and fails to trigger the insta-kill since the minimum is set at 50 (the amount of the threshold is negotiable but I rather not see it easily trigger via non-Hex'd burns/poisons) -- considering all the things this does in Sly's suggested rework, I would like to think this is a fair-enough drawback to it).
Lastly, in case it's already been forgotten my qualms with Hexer's Inflict VS. others' Resist (and partly on how it can scale easily with a lot of other things) I don't see how bringing Infliction VS. Resistance would equate to anything more than a token-pass/fail.
"Kameron8" Wrote:". . . at least know that we all agree it can badly use a revamp."
Agreed to this.
Re: Modernizing Enma's - Neus - 12-26-2016
The issue I have with maximum HP percentages is boss enemies. That 25% HP could be quite a lot for them. That said, they could be made immune.
My thoughts;
A) Enma's could just be changed to general damage instead of targeting specific enemies within an HP range.
B) It could additionally scale on your Dark ATK.
C) It could inflict Immobilize on people who survive for a short duration, maybe.
C2) Or you could absorb a portion of the damage dealt.
C3) Or it could extend the duration of active Hexer field effects (like Spirit Pain, etc.) if it defeats an enemy.
Don't really like the idea of a percentage based execute or removing people from the battle, though.
Re: Modernizing Enma's - Kameron8 - 12-26-2016
"Neus" Wrote:The issue I have with maximum HP percentages is boss enemies. That 25% HP could be quite a lot for them. That said, they could be made immune.
My thoughts;
A) Enma's could just be changed to general damage instead of targeting specific enemies within an HP range.
B) It could additionally scale on your Dark ATK.
C) It could inflict Immobilize on people who survive for a short duration, maybe.
C2) Or you could absorb a portion of the damage dealt.
C3) Or it could extend the duration of active Hexer field effects (like Spirit Pain, etc.) if it defeats an enemy.
Don't really like the idea of a percentage based execute or removing people from the battle, though.
I'm personally fond of the conditional HP portion of the spell -- the idea, not the 100 health value used -- and wouldn't want to see it removed, but unless a crippling status like immobilize gets tacked onto Enma's I think bumping it to scale better is a good way to handle it. My initial thoughts on the proposals are:
A) Removes what makes the spell interesting, slotting it to compete with Wretched Oil.
B) Most likely to work, but the static 100 damage might have to be modernized to Scaled Weapon Attack as well.
C) If the conditional 100 HP remains, it's too late for a status to impact the fight with 9m costs.
C2) Good potential in this realm of thinking, but still wouldn't heal for much unless the damage was also changed. (Could be combined with A)
C3) Given how difficult it is to defeat things with Enma's, it would still be in its rut.
Re: Modernizing Enma's - Snake - 12-27-2016
Well, the percentage-based execute is what you made us think about Enma's Summons.
It is a skill that takes a poor, weakened victim with a weird shadowy hand that crawls up their rears, and tosses them into the underworld for some reason as poor Enma is like "...Wdf!? Dev! Make those Hexers stop, jesus christ look at this line of monsters I have before me and you toss me more? Out-fuggin'-rageous!"
My word still stands. What is Enma's Summons supposed to be in an IC perspective? Why does it need to work against Players and Bosses? :v
Re: Modernizing Enma's - Kameron8 - 01-13-2017
Bump, Dev had some solid ideas for this but it never quite made the pass. I know Monk is the main focus, but, still seeing if this forgotten spell can get some love.
Re: Modernizing Enma's - Poptartu - 01-13-2017
Removing people from a fight for dying is kinda op. And unbalancing. One, if you're a healer and someone goes down it's your job to get them up, a silly spell shouldn't prevent you from doing your class things. Second, if it forced them out of a battle, does that mean someone else can jump in and take their spot? Makes it super silly to use in an IC situation where the other side has backup..
Also, wouldn't that effect effectively make you dead? If you're so dead that a priest can't walk over and res you I think you're dead. I know interference can already pretty much negate your heal, but preventing revives is kinda harsh, it already has a penalty anyways.. though I wasn't aware getting up repeatedly could reduce you to 0 momentum, but..
Re: Modernizing Enma's - Slydria - 01-13-2017
The whole point of Enma's Summons currently is to finish enemies off.
If you can just revive people after spending the time to use this situational skill that only applies at low HP, I don't see why people should bother.
Either it needs to actually do it's purpose well enough that you have reason to use it over straight up damage or it needs a greater purpose.