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+--- Thread: Rogue needs actual dagger skills and "roguery" (/showthread.php?tid=6740)
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Re: Rogue needs actual dagger skills and "roguery" - Raigen.Convict - 03-30-2020
[Name Pending]: (dagger only) Cut at the weak points in your targets armor. Can only be used from behind an enemy and within 1 tile. Basic attacks the target and removes armor based on the targets armor class for rounds based on rank and target armor class.
Rank 1: 20 FP Removes 5%/10%/20% armor for 3/2/1 rounds for Unarmored/Light Armor/ Heavy armor
Rank 2:15 FP Removes 10%/20%/40% armor for 4/3/2 rounds for Unarmored/Light Armor/ Heavy armor
Rank 3 10 FP Removes 15%/30%/60% armor for 4/3/3 rounds for Unarmored/Light Armor/ Heavy armor
Trap Mark: Equip passive: (cannot stack with archer's trap mark skill, the one first equipped in the skill list will take effect): Upon an enemy being hit by a trap laid by you, they are marked. Basic attacking marked targets grants +30 hit, crit and 10 damage against them for one attack. If this attack is done from behind it is guaranteed to critically strike.
Spit-ballin' ideas is all.
Re: Rogue needs actual dagger skills and "roguery" - Hanzo - 04-01-2020
Shit, this might even make traps viable.
Re: Rogue needs actual dagger skills and "roguery" - Neus - 04-04-2020
I generally agree with the idea that daggers are not meant for autohits and that Rogue supports daggers fine enough with most of its skills, but I also acknowledge that its skills do feel pretty dated and could be better. A lot of their power is currently in the Wind buffs.
Re: Rogue needs actual dagger skills and "roguery" - SolAndLuna - 04-04-2020
My personal opinion on the matter is that, while it's true that Rogue likely needs at least one or two dagger skills, as daggers only have a small handful of skills that can effectively be used with them in the first place, I would also like to note that not every Rogue class uses daggers. In fact, only Void Assassin truly does the majority of the time.
While Spellthief has a few dagger skills, their main ability is - of course - copy spells. Goose Bite and Final Flare/Hot Potato can be used, but from what I understand of the class, it's not meant to be their primary utility, just something to help with overpowering your opponent for Goose Bite and somewhat of a last resort for Final Flare. Flying Dagger gives a tiny bit of extra damage if you have some momentum left over, and Mystic Dagger can help if you're trying to land Final Flare, but in the vast majority of cases, Spellthief's abilities revolve around the illusion magic they get for buffs, as well as whatever spells they've copied.
As well, Engineers benefit far more from using guns, or perhaps axes on very rare occasions. Guns allow the use of both Flamethrower and Grenade Launcher - the former isn't particularly impressive, but it's still a notable source of damage and inflicts two statuses at the same time, while the latter is extremely powerful for the 1 momentum it costs you to use. Axes are far less useful for them, only giving access to Bashfix, but removing statuses against your bots can be useful, especially for something like the Railgan, and using it alongside other axe-reliant classes like Ghost makes it somewhat manageable. In either case, daggers don't give any new skills or notable benefits to using them.
Void Assassins are the only ones that get to use dagger skills all that often, at the end of the day, and even they also have spells that can't use daggers as a casting tool. (Which is a good thing in this case, mind you, the spells have incredibly powerful effects as it is) So, basically, any dagger skills given to Rogue would only be used by some Void Assassins and a small handful of Spellthieves.
So, just to leave my two cents on the matter, while one or two dagger skills would help, the problem with Rogue as it is right now is that it doesn't really support any particular playstyle that the promotion classes allow all that well, at least when compared to other base classes. Some other general "Rogue"-like skills should be considered as well, not necessarily just ones that use daggers and/or guns.
Re: Rogue needs actual dagger skills and "roguery" - Snake - 04-13-2020
The Wind buffs are pretty much all the class can offer. The traps are not as appealing, both as a gameplay and compared to dashing through your opponent with a sword.
Or softening their ribs with a tiger-like punch.
Or praying for RNGsus for a miracle while healing everybody to full in two turns.
Or attacking from the other side of the map with a bow and arrow.
Or absolutely owning someone through brutal sword/axe/spear autohits and having an amazing frontal defense.
Or absolutely owning someone with a myriad of elemental spells which can't be 'shh'd.
Or hell, using skills/spells that are exclusive to Youkai yourself.
I'm all down for you to decide what to do to make the class rival the others, atleast in making it more interesting rather than be a momentum dump for 2 rounds to become effective. The whole theme of 'roguery' that I suggested was more as a few ideas from other games that gave Rogues a more scoundrel-like kit based on weakening your enemy to a sorry state, then exploiting those openings they can create themselves without the help of other situations.
Pocket Sand, for example, is a good skill to emphasize that. A rogue doing that is creating an opening for themselves is kind of cool. I just wish there were more ways to debuff your enemy into a sorry state, while being more fluid about your gameplay. (I.E, not 'wasting momentum' to do things).
It's why I suggested Rogues to have poisons and such tied to their kit, maybe using oils and explosives and really dirty tactics like kicking someone in their-- brains-- to stun.
Another thing I remember from Pre-GR was the fact that Rogues were the masters at dodging. But now that Evasion is free for all, they lost their theme. It's good to consider giving them a way to use Evasion even through skills that normally should ignore it. Or give them better Evasion damage reduction based on their Celerity. I don't know. So many options to consider given the tipped balance of the base classes.
Even if that's a planned drawback for the class, the benefits don't quite rival. Since other classes don't quite do the 'waste momentum' deal nowadays, due to the sheer amount of options you gave them.