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+--- Thread: ["Global Fleur" Proposal] A "fix" to Basic Attacks (/showthread.php?tid=7484)
RE: ["Global Fleur" Proposal] A "fix" to Basic Attacks - Shujin - 12-03-2020
@Fern
Quote:The "unlucky positioning" example already takes place in the current group fights, except that instead of exploding to basics, you normally explode to either a group of magic damage or autohitters. I believe this will be a thing regardless of what Dev does, since it's not just a SL2 thing in my eyes - it's a strategy RPG game thing in general. This sort of thing can happen in Fire Emblem and the like too.Oh no, I wasn't trying to say that this DOESN'T happen already. I am saying that this would become even more frequent and I absolutely disagree with the strategy aspect for one single reason....Turn order.
A game like fire emblem has absolutely predictable turn orders, SL2? Is Random. You can not plan around, or hope for your Cel to keep you in a position where you CAN plan.
Just yesterday I fought with Atlas in a teamfight, who has absolutely no Cel. Once his partner died, his turn order shifted to above both of us, making him double turn (and he also had Seiryuu out). Like how can you plan ahead for that? Now imagine that happens with someone who is a basic attacker who gets the new "Global Fleur" basically being worth a tripple turn. Now imagine we do what Balor says and instead of nerfing Vulcanic, buff other enchants to that level (meaning you can technically prog that kind of stuff 4 times in the row, 1 for each enchant per weaon). You would nuke the whole team with no counter play, cause of the wide range of Vulcanic (and whatever other enchant of similar level).
That is not a crutch. That is cheap. That has nothing to do with a tactical strategy game either.
However I do understand why global fleur has the appeal...How often have I tried to make a bit more unique basic attacker, just to realize that its just not viable if you can't atleast tripple attack in a turn.
I just think that stuff needs to be kept in mind.
RE: ["Global Fleur" Proposal] A "fix" to Basic Attacks - Balor - 12-03-2020
I think Shujin, you've missed the context of my point about Volcanic being a crutch. The issue I see with basic hitting is not that volcanic is too good, it's that basic attacks are often incredibly easy to reduce base to sub 50 damage if you're playing a marginally optimized tank. Prior to Volcanic being present most crit builds were made to fish for Vorpals otherwise they were supplementing their fleur for more reliable autohits and skills. In fact I have seen 150 swa builds have their basic hits reduced to 0.
My point was moreso either you buffer up the alternatives to make Basic Hitting viable, or you change the way the damage is calculated so that we can nerf or rework the enchantments.
Global Fleur has an appeal, but I doubt it resolves the issues with basic attacking. As that's more of a numbers game than anything. While I wouldn't mind momentum refreshes for particular classes. I think you need to fix basic hit numbers first before we start considering global changes that won't resolve the underlying issues.
RE: ["Global Fleur" Proposal] A "fix" to Basic Attacks - Shujin - 12-03-2020
Oh no I got that, I am simply worried of overtuning everything instead of doing the opposite.
crutch/cheap is technically the same, one just a bit harsher, sorry my point might have drowned a bit in the wording.
TL;DR
Do not add more crutches, fix the issue instead is what I am saying.
RE: ["Global Fleur" Proposal] A "fix" to Basic Attacks - Tanasinn - 12-03-2020
I'll chip in to say - Yes, please. Especially with the number of class reworks/additions being basic-focused or basic-support friendly, like BK, Shapeshifter, and Bonder.
There are many times I have wanted to try a specific thing - Bonder main class with anything that isn't autohits, Ranger with anything but Ghost and pre-rework Kensei, Martial Artist with anything other than ghost and pre-rework Kensei, Black Knight with anything other than Ghost... And stopped because it was obvious that it just wouldn't be very good. Even not counting players, in PvE, it is much too valuable to have that third action available.
Fleur, and crits in general, have multiple counterplays at the moment already. Crit evade, Evade, parry skills, simply building as tanky as humanly possible. Not only do we have them, some of this counterplay was considered so oppressive and over the top that they have been nerfed. Crit Evade was nerfed in availability with the BK rework, Evade was hit with the trait reworks.
Right now, if you want to run basic attacks and not just plain be worse than anyone with autohits, you need to either main class Ghost, or use two different weapons and make sure your first two actions are basic attacks that crit. You have to be careful, plan out your moves and spacing, make sure you've siphoned enough from survival stats to actually be able to crit reliably, and then roll the dice twice if you're lucky enough for the setup to work out to even give you the chance to measure up to a duelist main class.
Then, if you do measure up to a duelist main class, you still have to deal with how you're probably not out-damaging the guy who has levelled four entire stats and is just spamming isendo at you.
The one thing I can't quite agree with is a suggestion to make basics universally better - Against a squishy target, basics will terrorize harder than an autohit if they land. Making basics universally better would make those kinds of characters fall apart, and it's already the case that in some situations a true basic-focused build can still cleave through tanks. It's just that the ones who can are... Running duelist main class, and skating by purely on Fleur.
RE: ["Global Fleur" Proposal] A "fix" to Basic Attacks - Balor - 12-03-2020
The thing is squishy builds tend to build to evade, which leads to hit gouging that tends to compromise overall damage at times. Gunners and Bows tend to be the highest accuracy builds in comparison. They are truly basic focused builds and have ways to subvert resists and armor such as guns ignoring armor? and claret applying to bows. We could throw in rogue classes as well.
I would also contest that most basic focused builds tend to be running ghost and claret to get around the damage calculation as they're calculated after armor is or something wonky. Or FB to gouge their Swa up to 170. Kensei uses it's basics to reset into kakegiri and hirazuki.
Again I wouldn't be opposed to classes with basics built into their identity getting a fleur equivalent. But not everyone needs it, we already lack so much class identity and basics should be looked at first before giving the +momentum to everyone. ATM optimally played especially in melee, you're just using it to combo into more reliable autohits. VA and Rogue being the only exceptions usually.
TLDR: Basics are easier to DR than anything else, and global fleur won't make them any more viable if they're not looked at.
P.S. No worries Shujin. Thank you for explaining your perspective and hearing me out.
RE: ["Global Fleur" Proposal] A "fix" to Basic Attacks - Sawrock - 12-03-2020
I want global fleur because it's fun and it's a splashable concept. Having dagger dance isn't fun; I have to use two weapons then when a lot of my build ideas don't work with that (although some do, and I'm glad for twin dance existing now).
RE: ["Global Fleur" Proposal] A "fix" to Basic Attacks - Balor - 12-03-2020
(12-03-2020, 09:34 AM)Sawrock Wrote: I want global fleur because it's fun and it's a splashable concept. Having dagger dance isn't fun; I have to use two weapons then when a lot of my build ideas don't work with that (although some do, and I'm glad for twin dance existing now).
Y'know what? If you want it because of rule of cool?
Fuggit les go.
RE: ["Global Fleur" Proposal] A "fix" to Basic Attacks - Snake - 12-03-2020
Global Fleur when.
RE: ["Global Fleur" Proposal] A "fix" to Basic Attacks - Senna - 12-03-2020
I'll be real with you on this one. While my opinion probably doesn't matter, I'll put my input nonetheless.
Should we have Fleur global instead of locked to duelist main? I've loved that, yes, but that comes at a price; the balancing nightmare.
That price is rebalancing a lot of classes, items, and so on. I'd like to say it was locked to the duelist main class only for a reason. In my eyes, this is opening Pandora's box. It would be fun at first, but it will become a nightmare once others begin to make VERY anti-fun combinations. There are a few I can think of at the top of my head as well.
Yes, I'd love the idea, but I've heard this song before, and it sounds like a lot of pain.
RE: ["Global Fleur" Proposal] A "fix" to Basic Attacks - Akame - 12-03-2020
I never had the wherewithal to string together an argument for global fleur, so thank you for posting this!
I've always disliked the idea that I was always limited to being a duelist in order to make a decent basic attack character when being, for example, a Black Knight/Monk was more suitable for an IC theme.
As described in the opening post, it would help tune the balancing in favor of basic attackers which is a good thing, as they are definitely on the losing side in many match ups. That being said, it's hard for me to see how this addition could get out of hand as there are already so many ways to keep hit-checking/crit-checking attacks in check.
If not global fleur, then I'd hope that more classes get their own kind of Fleur under certain conditions. More ways to make fun diverse basic attacking builds will always be a +1 from me.