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+--- Thread: Deploy Talis and Frozen Fear (/showthread.php?tid=8876)
RE: Deploy Talis and Frozen Fear - HaTeD - 03-24-2022
(03-23-2022, 10:36 PM)Poruku Wrote:(03-23-2022, 10:16 PM)WaifuApple Wrote: If you want to give it a drawback of a different kind, I could also suggest that the range of a Talis is specifically made long. Consider this, being unable to place it within 1-3 tiles of yourself. You can relocate it past 3 range to it's normal end point, but once it's out cannot retract it back in (or make THIS cost 3M, and moving it around otherwise still 1M)
This is a pretty cool idea. Force it at 4 or 5 range, plus 3m to bring it back. I'd say relocating it should also be 3m, basically making it 1m only when you don't have it deployed.
I'm not sure how balanced it would be since you can still have talis spells and non-talis spells and simply switch to those, but it certainly makes gap closing less bad. Oh, also many spells can reach melee range from talis distance away, so for instance you can still cast vyd on someone who's on top of you. Still, it would be a welcome drawback, though perhaps a bit complex
I strongly believe any kind of momentum increase with take away from its use of utility completely. It would make the effect moot and we would have just another unused effect in the game. I think if we either bring other mechanics to par (even though there are several ways to combat and compare talis to other classes already) Or look at a different and new perspective when dealing with it. I don't see the issue with gap closing here and your frustration with it. I feel like youre speaking from your point of view solely, but that's not so bad, feel free to express yourself. As from my experience using talis stones however, I haven't met a class in a fight that couldn't find some way to combat the range within reason. Therefore I offer a new mechanic, letting the talis be targeted by attacks and the like, making it a destructible field object. Don't like it? get rid of it, and when destroyed in such way it will be put on a cooldown. Likewise, I can agree that a use of Talis should be taxing and increase spell cost of what is used with it by a % or flat value. 5 fp to move, and a tax to the great empire of your focus for casting through it.
Balance isn't an issue outside of the specific domain of the talis that is deployed, so changing to non-talis applicable spells is a moot point imo. It would literally be the norm. To extend on the gap closing argument; Shukuchi, Charge, Winged Serpent, Agile accel, Talvyd Augmented effects, Tactician, Western wind, Nature walk, Create Shade, Other Talis, Voidgate/Vanishing strike, Blink, Electro Boots (forgive my lack of rembering their names proper) These all have very useful tools and methods of gap closing. Now there is not really a way for every single class, but I do believe not every class should being as theoretically fast and mobile as those intended to be light and quite elusive. (See Rogue, mage, archer) Compared to our hunk of iron walls, the black knight. At this point it comes down to game knowledge and an experience check to deal with such things as unfair as that might sound. Where you say, Polk, A range increase is better than a gap-closer I will state this is only in the eyes of an evasion build because a doomwall can utilize and appreciate either boon type.
I'm still a firm believer artillery maging should remain as it is outside of a few interactions. God help the poor soul being kited by a onyx talis in the center of a map while it's owner blinks upwards 20 tiles in any cardinal direction. With that outlier spoke of I want to express that a mages range was a peculiar detriment outside of invocations. How does a mage stay effectively safe if it's offensive spells were 1-7 range tops? That is no gap, it will be closed on post haste and they would be in constant check of getting hit. Talis offered a way and a mechanic to alleviate some of these problems for magic playstyles.
RE: Deploy Talis and Frozen Fear - Snake - 03-25-2022
I don't really think you can destroy a Talis gem either with basic hits, like runes. At most if we're changing it I'd pitch in:
- Talis Gem is now a destructable field object. It can be destroyed by basic attacks.
- Deploying a Talis costs 4M and 5% of your maximum FP. If this is your first time deploying a Talis, it will refund 3M. (This makes it so your Talis will now need 4M to be re-deployed in case it gets broken.)
- If you use the skill while a Talis is deployed, you will refund 3M and the Talis will be re-positioned to the selected tile. (No changes, only costs 5% FP per move, and essentially 1M.)
RE: Deploy Talis and Frozen Fear - sadbot - 03-26-2022
Hate to break it to you, but I’m pretty sure talis’ are and always have been destructible field objects. Spending 3m to destroy them is just so utterly pointless that nobody does it or even knows. Putting a cooldown on them once destroyed is a nice idea, I do think a momentum increase on the deploy skill is probably the worst of the changes that could be made. 4m with a 3m refund if it’s the first deploy or just being moved also sounds good and makes destroying it actually worth doing. It also makes ranged basic attacks a soft counter and discourages users from just throwing it right in peoples faces.
RE: Deploy Talis and Frozen Fear - InsainArcaneBirdbrain - 03-26-2022
(03-26-2022, 01:44 PM)sadbot Wrote: Hate to break it to you, but I’m pretty sure talis’ are and always have been destructible field objects. Spending 3m to destroy them is just so utterly pointless that nobody does it or even knows. Putting a cooldown on them once destroyed is a nice idea, I do think a momentum increase on the deploy skill is probably the worst of the changes that could be made. 4m with a 3m refund if it’s the first deploy or just being moved also sounds good and makes destroying it actually worth doing. It also makes ranged basic attacks a soft counter and discourages users from just throwing it right in peoples faces.
They are untargetable by basics actually, the only two things that can remove them is galren magaisendo and Hyatr fire breath.
RE: Deploy Talis and Frozen Fear - Autumn - 03-26-2022
They are very efficient at what they do, targetting their momentum is probably not the play, as since they cost 1m, they're already at risk of hitting resists and potentially losing a turn if the user is not careful with them. On top of this, it would simply not become efficient at dealing with far ranged threats again, and you already do lose out on 5 skill slots for not going with a tome anyway, as well as the potentiality of your spells getting parried by Ring of Pearls and Ice Point Guard. (as well as meeting melee counters)
Instead, tapping into their duration, the farshot penalty or simply just their cooldown is a far safer option towards the balance of these abilities, though if a cooldown is introduced, I would recommend moving the aspect of Deploy Talis where you can remove them from the field to another skill that is only active while one is on the field. (Such as remove tali, 1m)
RE: Deploy Talis and Frozen Fear - Poruku - 03-29-2022
Making them attackable would not be much of a nerf. Destroyable objects generally cost 6 momentum to remove for a melee character, and 3 for a ranged attacker. Perhaps if destroying the gem weakened the user meaningfully then it would make sense.
I still believe the only way to actually nerf these things would be to target the range or the momentum cost. Or at least place a significant drawback to increasing range so much and so easily.
I get that a nerf sounds rough when you consider what would be lost, comparing it to the current version. But keep in mind gem staves are leagues beyond all other options in terms of power, both in pvp and pve. It's important to compare it to other weapons, not just itself. 1m for a 5 range increase is just way too good. Yes resists can mess with you but that's true for anything that costs 1m, it's still a free bonus action in most cases.
Yes the staves don't benefit from spellbook, but they get other benefits in exchange such as two-hand and weapon parts. As for the parries, I believe those only happen in melee range(?).
Edit: Lastly I'd like to argue 3m would not render these staves unusable, I know I would still use them. They would become an artillery tool, allowing you to sit back and improve your range, casting spells safely without moving closer to the fray yourself. Essentially making them more suited to use when making a tactical position, especially in events and team battles. It would no longer be a spammable skill you just use all the time, you would need to carefully place it to cover the area you want. Just because you wouldn't use it every turn would not make it useless. It would fit the specific but still powerful niche of the artillery setup casting tool. It would obviously be less common in 1v1 pvp, but I think that's honestly warranted and just makes sense: it's an artillery tool. It makes sense to make it more suited to backliners and less versatile
RE: Deploy Talis and Frozen Fear - HaTeD - 03-29-2022
(03-29-2022, 06:41 AM)Poruku Wrote: Making them attackable would not be much of a nerf. Destroyable objects generally cost 6 momentum to remove for a melee character, and 3 for a ranged attacker. Perhaps if destroying the gem weakened the user meaningfully then it would make sense.
I still believe the only way to actually nerf these things would be to target the range or the momentum cost. Or at least place a significant drawback to increasing range so much and so easily.
I get that a nerf sounds rough when you consider what would be lost, comparing it to the current version. But keep in mind gem staves are leagues beyond all other options in terms of power, both in pvp and pve. It's important to compare it to other weapons, not just itself. 1m for a 5 range increase is just way too good. Yes resists can mess with you but that's true for anything that costs 1m, it's still a free bonus action in most cases.
Yes the staves don't benefit from spellbook, but they get other benefits in exchange such as two-hand and weapon parts. As for the parries, I believe those only happen in melee range(?).
Edit: Lastly I'd like to argue 3m would not render these staves unusable, I know I would still use them. They would become an artillery tool, allowing you to sit back and improve your range, casting spells safely without moving closer to the fray yourself. Essentially making them more suited to use when making a tactical position, especially in events and team battles. It would no longer be a spammable skill you just use all the time, you would need to carefully place it to cover the area you want. Just because you wouldn't use it every turn would not make it useless. It would fit the specific but still powerful niche of the artillery setup casting tool. It would obviously be less common in 1v1 pvp, but I think that's honestly warranted and just makes sense: it's an artillery tool. It makes sense to make it more suited to backliners and less versatile
Charge is 1 momentum and can be used every turn to increase range of move by 3 so long as you end within 3 range of an enemy mob
Shukuchi is 1 momentum and can be used every turn to increase move and some MA skills by range increase.
Engineer Jetpack is 1m for 6 range flat movement, some CD
Mass is a 1m tool that increases range of curate stuff by more than a significant amount. 5 range diamond I believe? Dear god, literally.
longdraw is 1m at max rank, range increase is 4, gust arrow is another 5 range. 9 range, 1 or no momentum requirement.
My point is youre taking the whole 'spammable unfair utility modifier argument' a bit far without comparing it to other forms in the game. Talis is 1 momentum, 5 range and locked to that domain type. 3 momentum makes this effect moot, and I state this in another way now; If god forbid you get gap closed on and you need to make distance and still be any form of effect, you need to move and readjust to attack. if you blink? thats 8 tiles. charge and shukuchi can cover that with added bonus and momentum efficiency, ranger might not even need to move, woe heaven kick be upon thee. 3 momentum in order to move the talis because you need to readjust from an unfavorable position just gives your opponent the momentum economy that they dont have to act on to take from you because they would be moving from the talis and gap closing you anyway. Talis has blind spots, as well as again, can only be used with spells of it's domain. There are much better ways to combat it in game with other mechanics, but instead we are here discussing a theoretical permanent change for it.
Now you mention the staffs are better than tomes? I can agree, but tomes themselves are outdated and have always been at a loss in certain stats compared to martial weaponry. I've discussed attempts to give tomes weapon parts especially in this hit rate meta because they lack so much. Whatever the case, talis isn't the issue with the staffs in my opinion and instead believe tomes need a rework. this 'bonus action' you mention has no effect on you when used itself. Only the spells cast through it are to be determined. Rough is an understatement if its nerfed from it's current state. It simply will not be used and will enjoy it's time in the closet with screamer tome, elemental swap genres, etc.
Now instead of talis being used, you get fortunite staffs being used for free. What then? Morganite staffs? No, the staffs arent in a league of their own. It comes down to preference between the tomes and staffs. Many tomes simply have much better scaling for power and their domain amplification. Why arent they used? Because their hit rate sucks and that's what we should fix first.
RE: Deploy Talis and Frozen Fear - Poruku - 03-29-2022
(03-29-2022, 07:48 AM)HaTeD Wrote: My point is youre taking the whole 'spammable unfair utility modifier argument' a bit far without comparing it to other forms in the game.
It's true that there are other comparable 1m options, but my point for those remains
1m move: Movement and range isn't the same because you're putting yourself closer to danger
longdraw: That's a class skill that every bow in the game has access to, and bow attacks are much weaker than spells
Mass: That's a support skill balanced around what it affects
So to reiterate differently: The spells you can use with Talis are not balanced around talis.
As for the better options, well, fortunite certainly needs to be addressed in itself. Morganite staff is also quite powerful, but far from talis level. I agree that tomes need a buff though.
That being said, I'm willing to agree 3m is too steep. Instead, I would suggest reducing the range to 2.
RE: Deploy Talis and Frozen Fear - Snake - 03-29-2022
I think the kicker here are "Spells". All of spell damages are an absurd because "silence is a counterplay it's fine", which is the current flawed argument in regards to it.
The moment a mage can sit on the backlines flinging spells here and there and Blinking away because now they have global range is when things begin tipping on the margin of 'broken'. Especially when some Ascended Youkai are also included into the fray. Don't forget Priest had an absurd range with its spells and had been bapped down solely because they could outrun melee people and avoid silence inflictions by just zoning people from afar.
That's what the current Talis staves are doing.
So I MEAN, if we want them to stay this way, I think they'll need to be tuned down a bit, scaling wise, so they're not preferred over tomes, or at -least-, make them be used 'with' tomes, so people don't further stack Bloody Palms or Idol on top of it, or a Fang-Faced Shield to blow things out of the water.
RE: Deploy Talis and Frozen Fear - HaTeD - 03-29-2022
(03-29-2022, 02:54 PM)Snake Wrote: I think the kicker here are "Spells". All of spell damages are an absurd because "silence is a counterplay it's fine", which is the current flawed argument in regards to it.
The moment a mage can sit on the backlines flinging spells here and there and Blinking away because now they have global range is when things begin tipping on the margin of 'broken'. Especially when some Ascended Youkai are also included into the fray. Don't forget Priest had an absurd range with its spells and had been bapped down solely because they could outrun melee people and avoid silence inflictions by just zoning people from afar.
That's what the current Talis staves are doing.
So I MEAN, if we want them to stay this way, I think they'll need to be tuned down a bit, scaling wise, so they're not preferred over tomes, or at -least-, make them be used 'with' tomes, so people don't further stack Bloody Palms or Idol on top of it, or a Fang-Faced Shield to blow things out of the water.
The only blink interaction with global range is with onyx head staff (general/huggesoan domain) talis. I had already listed this to be an outlier in talis interactions and should be addressed as a seperate case becase whether or not talis is changed to have increased momentum or less range, casting from it in general is the issue with blink. You can blink anywhere so long as it's in the center of the map. As stated, an outlier interaction. I believe blink should only be cast from self to alleviate this issue, along with some other spells whom could cover the map.
Current talis staves are not simply kite tools, no. I'm sorry kunai but the one interaction with me kiting does not rest with talis. It's western wind and spirit talvyd giving me 15 tile movement. There is a difference between casting first moving and then moving while leaving the talis behind to cast from. In either scenario it ends up being a case of how far away someone can get from their talis after placing it.
Spells are 100% swa and then 40>120 elemental scaling, up to 180 or 200 in invocation levels. Building elemental comes with it's own tax but this should be a separate thread to address spells being powerful.
Tuning down the staves is an option, or hey if we were just reading my other post? Buff tomes and give them weapon parts. They aren't being used because hit rate is such a necessity and a big part of what makes martial weapons more viable to land hit checks is stacking hit parts. Once this is done and Tome/staves are on equal footing for design, then we could address talis staves more accurately.