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+--- Thread: With a heavy Boneheart (/showthread.php?tid=10572)
RE: With a heavy Boneheart - Rendar - 11-07-2023
So, I don't really have a say in the matter here, beyond "Hey maybe getting to do 3 actions a turn that do more damage than non-basic attackers due to exceedingly high damage scaling of GUI is maybe not quite okay"
Whenever I talk about Crit Evade, I see people appearing out of the wood works to go "It's OK. I have 210 crit without even trying hard, and can get even more." This is mostly a Filia thing, and I don't know how true it is.. but, personally, I'd love if maybe crit capped out, overall, at 75%. So it wasn't literally just guaranteed damage because someone couldn't afford to pay the LUC + Boneheart + FAI tax (of which, black water negates FAI)
RE: With a heavy Boneheart - Miller - 11-07-2023
(11-07-2023, 01:53 AM)Rendar Wrote: So, I don't really have a say in the matter here, beyond "Hey maybe getting to do 3 actions a turn that do more damage than non-basic attackers due to exceedingly high damage scaling of GUI is maybe not quite okay"
Whenever I talk about Crit Evade, I see people appearing out of the wood works to go "It's OK. I have 210 crit without even trying hard, and can get even more." This is mostly a Filia thing, and I don't know how true it is.. but, personally, I'd love if maybe crit capped out, overall, at 75%. So it wasn't literally just guaranteed damage because someone couldn't afford to pay the LUC + Boneheart + FAI tax (of which, black water negates FAI)
Dark Water in it's main iteration, Black Bubble is actually delayed until the start of a new round before it removes your faith. There's a few instant removals, but they're extremely niche like dark water vials or belong to sources that someone running a critical build would rarely consider running. It's notable, but frankly speaking; you're almost never going to see someone use dark water for crit fishing unless they're absurdly desperate.
Critical builds with damage exceeding skill/spells by more than a small margin typically belong to Axes and GUI main scaling weapons which double up on SWA and Critical Damage and frankly shouldn't be represented as 'all critical builds'.
I don't really see much point in knee-capping critical to some arbitrary number either or removing the third action; a large chunk of the appeal of critical archetypes is access to passives that enable the third action and they're typically seen as 'more fun' by the people who run them.
You could cap the upper limit of critical and even critical evade buffs like hit/evade, but I don't think we should ever have minimum/maximums in this game personally.
RE: With a heavy Boneheart - Ray2064 - 11-07-2023
(11-06-2023, 10:16 PM)MothEnthusiast Wrote: ... Why is the baseline that you SHOULD be getting an extra action over everyone else every turn? Action economy is the strongest thing in any game like this. You should be fighting tooth and nail to GET that boost, we shouldn't be fighting tooth and nail to PREVENT you from getting that boost. Which begs the question... What baseline of crit should reasonable investment on both sides end up being? 60%? 80%? Or would you have it that investment on both sides ends up with 100% crit rate?
Why is a 78% chance to crit considered an 'only' in this case? That's a LOT. Even in a non-duelist case, hitting the crit twice for an extra action has a 60.84% chance of happening in those two hits. That's, at a baseline of 2 hits, 60+% chance of getting a free action if they don't put points into crit evade. Not counting fleur, not counting extra hits from rogue baseclass, not counting if they simply buffed up at the beginning of the fight, and certainly not counting the fact that crits are some of the highest damage sources you can get if you build for them correctly. (Quick edit, I didn't really account for APT-base that anyone would have for crit evade innately, but it still wouldn't be very much without investment.)
If you get 40 FAI or LUC (post apt), boneheart, and the APT bonus, you're only looking at 75-80ish crit evade. That's INVESTMENT versus ZERO INVESTMENT stat-wise to achieve this. When you start accounting for investment vs investment, and active crit bonuses that can be applied in a fight, you're easily pushing into 50+% chance. Even a NERFED northern wind completely nullifies boneheart in 3m, for 6 rounds.
Well, you first have to take into account that Crit builds are by far the less stat efficient archetype out there for a reason.
There are usually 30-40 points you dump into Luck, which is a stat that does essentially nothing for you but amp up your Critical rate (And CEvade too, but god forbid you wear a ROT +), and unless Lightning attack is part of your build, you're just looking at a big nothing-burger stat that you invest in to play the archetype (without any guarantee this won't die ln you, mind) , but alright,part of the cost for three actions a turn.
Assuming you paid your SKI tax, you'll be hovering around only 70-80 Critical for now.
Then you'll have to take into account how , as Milkinero said, there's another stat investment to be had for you attacks to deal more damage over the course of these three actions than the average John-Mage, who'll do so while not having bothered with any of this in the first place.
If you're a Gun/Dagger user? Congrats, you can skip that step since your weapon type scales off Guile. Lucky you !
You can reach 55 or so of the stat without much issue. If you're using STR, well, hope you enjoy these 15 virtual extra points of VIT so you can invest invest the double in Guile.
That's another bunch of stats down the drain, once again, with no guarantee they'll return their investment in the case you're not critting.
Then there's the fact your equipment will usually have to be tailored specifically to reach extra amount of critical after that, unless you got Bonder/VA/Hexer-worthy roids.
And all of that to hit what- 115 crit pre-battle buffs , if you're really generous ?
If you're something like your ol' reliable Ghost/BK, and aren't using an axe, your only reliable crit buff comes from inflicting Fear (if they're not a Shaitan I hate Shaitan), for a grand total of...130 crit, conditionally.
If you do use an axe, you sacrifice further of your defensive utility for extra critical, which is fairr, but remains an extra investment that can be just blown to the wind. Given Zerked Shell's boost equals to half of your current missing HP in percent, you'll be looking at a middle ground of 25 crit or so.
With the cost of essentially being left stat-starved, without any real utility to call your own , low on FP, defenses, etc. Having your cris denied makes you simply worthless
RE: With a heavy Boneheart - caliaca - 11-07-2023
(11-06-2023, 08:23 PM)Autumn Wrote: This does not rise up from nowhere, it has been a largely in-part development over time. With more classes getting easy access to crit evade and improvements to their own kits that have lined them up with stats that go well with Crit Evade, like BKs finding LUC to be an overwhelmingly desirable stat, or Bonders getting access to some incredible basic attacking tools. But that's not the only reason either, the nerfs in question so far may include:I've been calling for crit reduction instead myself for a while. I like that.
-Keyshot changed from 30 Critical rate to 15
-Zerker Shell quartered from what it was
-Old Fitting Form removed from the game (Ghost honestly hasn't recovered from this)
-Northern Wind changed from 32 to 24 crit.
-GR2's entire existence making Poise a worthless mechanic
And a couple more side-points that do effect the general worthwhileness of critical rates:
-LUC's changes in GR2 that make it significantly less desirable as a stat for the purposes of offense.
-General player knowledge floor has raised drastically (this is a good thing)
Regarding poise, I have attempted before to address how completely useless it is to a duelist and how crucial it is to their gameplan to have critical rates, and I was met with the usual disapproval over buffing anything basic attack related (especially when related to duelist). I have since deleted the thread due to my opinions from then lining up a bit differently now, but I have attempted addressing this from an individual case.
As for if this is a sudden targeted nerf? People have been pining about the Crit vs Crit Evade dynamic for a few months now in the main discord channels and sometimes on the OOC, it is a problem that is rooted somewhere that I don't think anything but a numbers change somewhere can change that necessarily.
I find it a little odd that crit evade is advantaged on a stat level due to crit evade being used as a baseline for it to be determined against, but that changes significantly with items and skills, I can't deny that.
Crit Evade would be far better as a crit reduction stat than the outright denial of crits which are essential to some classes to even function correctly. That is the only rework I could see to the stat being present, but as it stands I think Boneheart being +25 crit evade is far too effective on an enchant when most enchants are valued at 5-10 on any individual stat's level.
Its worth 25 of a stat, 25. Most are worth 10 at best.
Also support nerfing boneheart in the interim.
One thing people haven't really noted here is those ways of juicing crit usually take momentum and has a negative in battle associated of taking valuable turns. My ass just rocking up with 110 crit evade without doing shit. Same thing for Dr vs evade really.
(11-07-2023, 01:53 AM)Rendar Wrote: So, I don't really have a say in the matter here, beyond "Hey maybe getting to do 3 actions a turn that do more damage than non-basic attackers due to exceedingly high damage scaling of GUI is maybe not quite okay"
Whenever I talk about Crit Evade, I see people appearing out of the wood works to go "It's OK. I have 210 crit without even trying hard, and can get even more." This is mostly a Filia thing, and I don't know how true it is.. but, personally, I'd love if maybe crit capped out, overall, at 75%. So it wasn't literally just guaranteed damage because someone couldn't afford to pay the LUC + Boneheart + FAI tax (of which, black water negates FAI)
Generally using my Crack builds as examples for these threads aren't super indicative of the overall whole.
That build in specific was made cause I was tired of the state of crit evade and wanted to gouge crit to an insane degree specifically cause base crit evade is usually better. It did have 248 total crit but...
It sacrificed a lot to get there and was generally a bad build.
RE: With a heavy Boneheart - Poruku - 11-07-2023
Boneheart should also allow you to charm undead
RE: With a heavy Boneheart - Snake - 11-10-2023
LOL...