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+--- Thread: Evade Sucks, man. (/showthread.php?tid=10594)
RE: Evade Sucks, man. - Ray2064 - 11-29-2023
Something Filia made mention of once is that instead of being part of a skill's power budget, some skills are already good AND have their evade ignoring property atop of that. So , I'd just make a list of skills to at the very least adjust to Great Accuracy.
1 - Divine Shower : HEAR ME OUT. It's arguably the best invoke in the game as of now,deals generous damage, a crippling enough status effect if you've not picked the right race, and is global.
The fact it'd be a multi hit still would mean the opponent would at least get hit a few times assuming the Curate paid their hit tax (kind of on them if they didn't with purity edge on hand)
+ It would allow Kenseis to Divine Shower into Sheathing. That'd be cool.
2 - Falcon Strike
Generous positioning tool with good damage that cycles a bit too well with the rest of FB's evade ignoring kit. Great Accuracy at the very least would be fair.
3 - Excel Crashes (Evoker's specifically)
I don't think I need to go into much detail here. Making them Force a glance would in most cases still deal a huge amount of damage to dodges.
4- Tentacles
These things are the scourge of the earth I want them dead
5 - Acid Rain
It's an already hardly resistable skill that inflicts a very good effect. I don't think it needs the evade ignoring part.
6 - Verglas' Ice Spear thing
It's an evade ignore that then renders the target further defenseless by freezing them.
7 - Shaitan Grapple
Extremely cheap, deals huge protection ignoring, evasion ignoring (or, well, a forced 70%) and renders the target immobilized
What the fuck Dev
RE: Evade Sucks, man. - Kameron8 - 11-30-2023
I'd pretty much like all the player-accessible evasion ignores to be Great Accuracy instead, at least when it comes to PvP. I don't really care if people autohit a super boss in PvE content.
But it's pretty common at this point for evade setups to get one cycled by a rotation of Firebird skills, a particularly juiced up Checkmate, a few Shaitan Grapples, some tile damage, a global divine shower or two, or any of the other options listed above. The DR from Glance is still less than what dedicated tanks get, with a (usually) smaller health pool on top of it.
RE: Evade Sucks, man. - Poruku - 12-03-2023
These skills are all insanely good, to the point where it's one of those things about the game that like everyone knows is op but it's not addressed that much. I mean damn, everyone knows shaitan grapple is some of the most broken stuff around
RE: Evade Sucks, man. - Snarky Soujo - 12-09-2023
(11-28-2023, 08:32 PM)Autumn Wrote:(11-28-2023, 05:36 PM)Poruku Wrote: In my eyes the issue with evasion is the people who are not as sweaty as me. The people who don't pump their hit or evade super high, who don't really build for pvp in mind in general. Those people will simply get destroyed by a person with good hit/evade. Your evade build isn't top tier? You will die in like 2 turns. Your hit chance isn't good and I'm running an evade build? You will have literally 0% chance to hit. To me, that is just not that fun. Not to say that they should have a 50% chance to win... But they should at least be able to deal damage or dodge a few attacks!
Additionally, the current evasion formula makes it a nightmare to balance event mobs. Like damn, I need to make sure they all have some very specific numbers to make it fair. And if you come to an event with an unoptimized character? Well you better hope you don't get attacked or you can be useful enough hitting the non-evade mobs. Either way, it's just... It could be better! I think the system works, but it really could be better!
I will add here that I think one way of closing the gap between optimized and not optimized is to simply lower the cap of bonus hit/evade to 25 each, this would be a far more achievable goal for both ends of the spectrum to be able to achieve and also not make unoptimized play so punishing.
This would come with the unfortunate circumstance of flanking being REALLY damn good, but that can be tuned on it's own as well.
This would be an awful nerf to Evade.
Capping evade buffs at 25, making average topend evade 175-180 means that without hit buffs, lets average 230-40 to make a laid back example, means people are chancing at 55-60% without hit buffs.
Prior, with the same lack of bonus hit, a 200-205 evade with full buffs, is only being chanced at 30-35%
RE: Evade Sucks, man. - Autumn - 12-09-2023
(12-09-2023, 12:53 AM)Snarky Soujo Wrote:(11-28-2023, 08:32 PM)Autumn Wrote:(11-28-2023, 05:36 PM)Poruku Wrote: In my eyes the issue with evasion is the people who are not as sweaty as me. The people who don't pump their hit or evade super high, who don't really build for pvp in mind in general. Those people will simply get destroyed by a person with good hit/evade. Your evade build isn't top tier? You will die in like 2 turns. Your hit chance isn't good and I'm running an evade build? You will have literally 0% chance to hit. To me, that is just not that fun. Not to say that they should have a 50% chance to win... But they should at least be able to deal damage or dodge a few attacks!
Additionally, the current evasion formula makes it a nightmare to balance event mobs. Like damn, I need to make sure they all have some very specific numbers to make it fair. And if you come to an event with an unoptimized character? Well you better hope you don't get attacked or you can be useful enough hitting the non-evade mobs. Either way, it's just... It could be better! I think the system works, but it really could be better!
I will add here that I think one way of closing the gap between optimized and not optimized is to simply lower the cap of bonus hit/evade to 25 each, this would be a far more achievable goal for both ends of the spectrum to be able to achieve and also not make unoptimized play so punishing.
This would come with the unfortunate circumstance of flanking being REALLY damn good, but that can be tuned on it's own as well.
This would be an awful nerf to Evade.
Capping evade buffs at 25, making average topend evade 175-180 means that without hit buffs, lets average 230-40 to make a laid back example, means people are chancing at 55-60% without hit buffs.
Prior, with the same lack of bonus hit, a 200-205 evade with full buffs, is only being chanced at 30-35%
I'm not exactly sure what the logic is here, if both are changed then the only thing that really changes drastically is the aforementioned interaction with flanking bonuses (which arent capped) and one thing that I had simply overlooked (which is my mistake): Evade/Hit DeBuffs being stronger, though I'd argue that these should be changed to better interact with our new systems (You know, having them interact with the cap in a positive way that makes overcapping actually feasible in some scenarios) but that's beside the point of the issue that I bring up specifically.
The issue with Evade that I am experiencing is that it is not as weak as people think it is, and is instead just being brought up as a reaction to specific things happening at that time, is hit inbalanced for some builds? Hell yes it is, that's exactly the problem here that I am describing!!
Howling handshot gets 18 hit from archer, 7 hit from reliability, a potential extra 20 from an off-class OR Wild Elf, leading to some ridiculous scenarios.
There are other problem cases such as with instruments, such as with guns (especially rifles), such as with even shit like Purity Edge or Blessed being a little overtuned (Yes i'm bringing up Blessed again)
All of this shit here is unequal to the other majority of weapons and evade builds, not every weapon is the howling handshot much like how every evade build isn't a spellthief or kensei, its so hard to expect equal playing grounds for everyone which is why the low end of the spectrum suffers so much more than the higher end. The numbers game is too much right now and its getting very tiresome to build for because it absolutely kills class and item diversity.
With my ranting over with, i'm going to detail exactly how this affects things, first off it means that the upper end of evade vs hit is lowered but remains relatively the same in terms of hit percentages, 270 hit vs 200 evade is the exact same number as 245 hit vs 175 evade. This change makes it easier for people to hit the upper allowance of where you are considered viable for the amount of hit you have, it also makes it so that multiple pathes are available for people to take regarding their hit bonuses (Such as say, you don't need to stack grandmaster and FAO anymore to hit the cap, you can have either or, which opens up CLASS DIVERSITY)
This generally changes how low end up builds matchup to high end builds, and closing that gap should be emphasized greatly, because ignoring that gap is purely ignorant and leads into this false sense of thinking where we should be balancing around Handshot, and not the other way around.
I got off track here, I don't think all my arguments are completely foolproof or solid, I already pointed out two of the flaws and there's quite a few more mostly regarding systems I haven't really thought too in depth into, but I do not see the flaws you're pointing out, and there are clear merits to a lower cap.
RE: Evade Sucks, man. - Snake - 12-09-2023
Revert Glancing Blows to be more RNG again.
RE: Evade Sucks, man. - MothEnthusiast - 01-04-2024
The argument for lower caps does make sense on a surface level, and I'd be willing to give it a shot, but it does put debuffs in a tougher place as a result. Debuffs hitting overcapped buffs equates to no change, after all. I think the numbers would definitely need to be tweaked on top of it, such as giving Grandmaster its own cap, as well as other various changes on par with that.