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+--- Thread: Skill Slots Suggestion (/showthread.php?tid=286)
Re: Skill Slots Suggestion - RoboCat - 12-03-2014
The answer is really very simple: because SKI is a melee stat
that makes sense thematically to increase your number of
skill slots. SKI represents your 'overall weapon-based combat
ability,' which I would imagine includes your knowledge of
different styles and moves.
Basing it on the higher of your WIL or your SKI ensures that
WIL-based characters gain the same amount of skill slots as
they do now, while melee- and gun-based characters, who
usually don't have full WIL, get to use their SKI instead,
which is often much higher.
Suggested formula:
If SKI > WIL,
Slots = (SKI/10) + (LV/10) + 5
else,
Slots = (WIL/10) + (LV/10) + 5
Whether SKI or WIL is used, all characters have a theoretical
cap of 19 skill slots under this system, as all stats cap at 80.
Basically, my problem with your idea is that you seem to
feel like the answer to "mages are powerful" has to be "nerf
mages," when it can just as easily be "buff non-mages." The
latter will make non-mages happier without harming mages'
happiness, while the former will make mages angry and non-
mages vindictively smug.
Power creep can be dealt with by buffing monsters. This has
been Game Balance 101, RoboCat. Please turn in your essay
after class next week.[/quote]
I suggested that way so that even the unlucky ones who get 'buckets' of str or cel and only barely decent will or skill. IT is easier to get some stats than others, but that doesn't change the fact that this suggestion made for everyone to be able to use everything they have sp in for better Rp fluidity during combat. Mages get to do this, rare cases of melee get to do this, and the rare and unlucky everything else is left out of the picture.
Re: Skill Slots Suggestion - Daisuke - 12-03-2014
Do other classes even need that many skill slots?
I don't think I've ever been in a situation on a melee character where a lack of skill slots for necessary skills wasn't solved by leveling up
If anything, before skillslots are even an issue I wind up having problems just unlocking some skills cuz SP and tons of important innates.
Re: Skill Slots Suggestion - Grandpa - 12-03-2014
"[url=http://neus-projects.net/viewtopic.php?p=1485#p1485 Wrote:Soapy » Tue Dec 02, 2014 7:27 pm[/url]"]And then you have a subclass.This is literally exactly why melee classes need more skill slots. One melee class may have a lot of passives (IE Kensei), but have you even looked at Void Assassin?
There is no point in having magic users being the only ones to have skill slots. That curses so many races to a maximum of maybe, possibly 12 by the time they're 60. And with a main class and sub class, that is not nearly enough. Every class combination gets skill. Not every one gets wil.
Re: Skill Slots Suggestion - Daisuke - 12-03-2014
First thing I see when I see VA is Resourceful. Second thing I see is them being divided up into a mage VA or a melee VA. And from that you'll probably use like 3-6 skills at the most, 3 of which are covered by resourceful.
From there, you'll grab the utility stuff from your sub class because you've already covered your main method of attacking.
Classes that come from duelist are usually full of innates and equip like 3 things and grab PG, riposte, and fluer from duelist itself.
BK will most likely just grab hanging, every innate, and with whatever points they have left they put into steel mind/body etc. You probably won't even touch soldier skills.
Verglas depends on build but a cel focused verglas just needs ice point, greaves, and rapid kick. Str verglas doesn't care about anything in particular since their moves aren't as useful without chaining into a different style (which means a mixed build) (and verglas has will growth on top of that)
Monk also depends on your build since they have a variety of scaling like Verglas and all you'll grab from MA is shukuchi, heaven kick, and meditate if you have a lot of skill.
And keep in mind, low will means a low FP pool so these melee classes don't even want to grab a bunch of skills since they'd much rather prefer abilities they can always make use rather than being limited by their FP and unlike mages that get a variety of different elemental damage, the only real variation for melee is either being an auto hit, a crit, or doing magic damage to bypass high defense. So once you cover your bases all that's left is utility which is mostly in innates.
Re: Skill Slots Suggestion - Rendar - 12-03-2014
"[url=http://neus-projects.net/viewtopic.php?p=1531#p1531 Wrote:Daisuke » Wed Dec 03, 2014 11:22 am[/url]"]First thing I see when I see VA is Resourceful. Second thing I see is them being divided up into a mage VA or a melee VA. And from that you'll probably use like 3-6 skills at the most, 3 of which are covered by resourceful.
From there, you'll grab the utility stuff from your sub class because you've already covered your main method of attacking.
Classes that come from duelist are usually full of innates and equip like 3 things and grab PG, riposte, and fluer from duelist itself.
BK will most likely just grab hanging, every innate, and with whatever points they have left they put into steel mind/body etc. You probably won't even touch soldier skills.
Verglas depends on build but a cel focused verglas just needs ice point, greaves, and rapid kick. Str verglas doesn't care about anything in particular since their moves aren't as useful without chaining into a different style (which means a mixed build) (and verglas has will growth on top of that)
Monk also depends on your build since they have a variety of scaling like Verglas and all you'll grab from MA is shukuchi, heaven kick, and meditate if you have a lot of skill.
And keep in mind, low will means a low FP pool so these melee classes don't even want to grab a bunch of skills since they'd much rather prefer abilities they can always make use rather than being limited by their FP and unlike mages that get a variety of different elemental damage, the only real variation for melee is either being an auto hit, a crit, or doing magic damage to bypass high defense. So once you cover your bases all that's left is utility which is mostly in innates.
So, first off "Void Assassin", lets look at what skills they will grab as a melee VA. Fray, Cutthroat, Blotch, Void Gate, Void Veil, Veil Off, Deadly Arms, Advancing Flow, Backstab, and the other 3 innates.
Out of those, Cutthroat, Void Veil, Veil Off, Deadly Arms, and Advancing Flow will always be equipped, for the most part. Now we look at their .base. class Rogue. What would a VA want to take from their? All of the winds, Steal, Flank, Resourceful, and Wind Dancer. 5 from the base, 5 from the Promotion. That's 10 skills right there. If they've got 10 will < which most people get, but not all > they'll have 15 total skill slots. That means for whatever other class they have, they have to take only 5 skills. Not much to work off of, right?
Duelists. Let's go the Ghost route since Kensei's are used primarily for innates. Ghosts will almost always take EI, Wraithguard, Haunting, Last Chance, and generally Rebound, tacked on with their innates. Thats 5 skills, not including any weapon specific ones people take. Now lets look at Duelist. Sidecut, PG, L'au-Dela, Sharpen, Riposte, Fleur. That is 6 skills. Ghost would take 11 skill slots. if they wanted all that and wanted to team it up with something else, that leaves their other class .one. skill slot.
BKs, unlike you think, take a .lot. of skills. Hanging, Checkmate, Crescent Rook, Castling, Forced Move < Only in tandem with a Shinken User >, Steel Mind, Sudden Death, Prophylaxis, Stalemate, THEN their innates. So barring Forced Move and Steel Mind, what do most BKs take? 7 Skills from BK. They also take some shit from Soldier, like Shinken, Turn-over, or Round Trip. A possibility of 3 skills taken from Soldier. So if they use a weapon that has 2 types, they get 9 skills, with 3 left to their sub.
Now, Verglas. Verglas verglas verglas. Only a jackass Cel user would .only. use Rapid Kick with Ice Greaves now. It got fixed, wherein it made its damage .actually. not bullshit. So it does about as much damage as Axe Kick, unless you set up with Ice Greaves < Which take 3 skill slots mind you! > So, lets assume you're a CEL build that uses STR and Chimera Style. Rising Kick, Axe Kick, Face Stomp, Rapid Kick, Ice Point, Ice Greaves, Chimera Style. 7 Skill slots right there. Lets see what Verglas would want to take from their base class. Heaven Kick, Meditate, Shukuchi, Cleanse Body, maybe peddling wheel or Evasive Strike. Thats a total of 5-6 from Martial Artist, so thats at 12-13 skill slots .just. taken up by Verglas.
Do you start to see a trend here..? Melee Classes, from just 1 class if they want to make the 'most of it' have to almost use every single skill slot to make it work. Leaving no room for a sub-class that isn't fucking kensei to work properly.
Re: Skill Slots Suggestion - MegaBlues - 12-03-2014
The point of the skill slot system is to force you to make choices. If you can equip everything you want to, you're most likely using a gimmick or tons of passives.
As an Evoker/LB, even I have to swap out spells from time to time.
Re: Skill Slots Suggestion - Rendar - 12-03-2014
As LB/Evo I know I can toss out 2 spells because they're utter crap compared to their Evoker counterparts, but LB/Evo has a ton of spells at their disposal with a variety of elements. Barring you don't use any invocations as an Evoker, you should totally be fine at 17 skill slots.
I'm just suggesting we get something to give a .few. extra skill slots to people.
If SKI > WIL,
Slots = (SKI/15) + (LV/10) + 5
else,
Slots = (WIL/10) + (LV/10) + 5
It would provide 3-4 extra skill slots for Physical units, which is kind of .exactly. what we need.
Re: Skill Slots Suggestion - Ryu-Kazuki - 12-03-2014
"[url=http://neus-projects.net/viewtopic.php?p=1525#p1525 Wrote:Grandpa » Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:09 am[/url]"]"[url=http://neus-projects.net/viewtopic.php?p=1485#p1485 Wrote:Soapy » Tue Dec 02, 2014 7:27 pm[/url]"]And then you have a subclass.This is literally exactly why melee classes need more skill slots. One melee class may have a lot of passives (IE Kensei), but have you even looked at Void Assassin?
I have. I do fine with 12 skill slots at lv 45.
"[url=http://neus-projects.net/viewtopic.php?p=1532#p1532 Wrote:Rendar » Wed Dec 03, 2014 12:53 pm[/url]"]So, first off "Void Assassin", lets look at what skills they will grab as a melee VA. Fray, Cutthroat, Blotch, Void Gate, Void Veil, Veil Off, Deadly Arms, Advancing Flow, Backstab, and the other 3 innates.
Out of those, Cutthroat, Void Veil, Veil Off, Deadly Arms, and Advancing Flow will always be equipped, for the most part. Now we look at their .base. class Rogue. What would a VA want to take from their? All of the winds, Steal, Flank, Resourceful, and Wind Dancer. 5 from the base, 5 from the Promotion. That's 10 skills right there. If they've got 10 will < which most people get, but not all > they'll have 15 total skill slots. That means for whatever other class they have, they have to take only 5 skills. Not much to work off of, right?
Now lets look at Duelist. Sidecut, PG, L'au-Dela, Sharpen, Riposte, Fleur. That is 6 skills. Ghost would take 11 skill slots. if they wanted all that and wanted to team it up with something else, that leaves their other class .one. skill slot.Do you start to see a trend here..? Melee Classes, from just 1 class if they want to make the 'most of it' have to almost use every single skill slot to make it work. Leaving no room for a sub-class that isn't fucking kensei to work properly.
Look at all the skills I don't ever see anybody use, nor do I.
Fray, Blotch, Void Gate, Deadly Arms, Dark Shield.
And for Duelist, I don't use, Sidecut, PG, L'au-Dela, Sharpen.
I seem to do generally fine, granted most of the time I use normal attacks. Just because the skills are there, it doesn't mean you have to use them. If everybody and their mother had every skill in the game, there'd be no tactical diversity because everybody would flow to the meta and use the same thing all the time.
It's a day when Blues, Soapy, and I all agree with each other. But they're right, you're supposed to have limitations to be making choices; Mages on the other hand need their spells to be slightly diverse due to having so many types of resistances, absorbs, immunities overall; and on top of that, would die very easily without some skills that work hand in hand to make them viable in combat.
LBs I'm not so worried about because they suck. Their damage gets reduced at farther ranges, is pretty low to begin with, and can be pretty easily resisted with no increase to damage other than Spell Power.
"[url=http://neus-projects.net/viewtopic.php?p=1534#p1534 Wrote:Rendar » Wed Dec 03, 2014 1:08 pm[/url]"]As LB/Evo I know I can toss out 2 spells because they're utter crap compared to their Evoker counterparts, but LB/Evo has a ton of spells at their disposal with a variety of elements.
It would provide 3-4 extra skill slots for Physical units, which is kind of .exactly. what we need.
First off, just because you have them, doesn't mean you can or would use them all. I sacrifice some of my offensive choices for utility skills because of the SP limit I have, and I end up with 2 LB spells, but then again, I don't use Evoker on that character, so that's it, I have two spells, which is two elements, elements that can easily be resisted with a scarf of pair of sunglasses, let alone ore material types, circle ring, etc.
Second, no, you don't. I do just fine as a melee with little to no slots, I have plenty of nice offensive, and utility / defense skills, but I don't t try to spam them every chance I get either. I balance up with normal attacks and actually try to combat without autohitting or suping myself up to overpower my enemy.
Yeah I may work differently than some other people, but I've played all sides of the field (minus MAs), so I don't see any problem.
Re: Skill Slots Suggestion - Grandpa - 12-04-2014
Every promoted class has a skill growth. Not every promoted class has a will growth. That's really all this comes to. Logically skill slots should be based on skill. Every single promoted class gets, at the very lowest point, 20% skill. Even classes that would never use it (because why are you using a basic attack) such as Evoker have 30%. If the excuse is "Why shouldn't they get skill? They should at least be able to try and hit things." Then why don't melee classes (excluding Verglas) get wil? They should at least be able to try and use spells, if that's the logic we're using.
The "Not all mages" argument doesn't work here. As I play about five mages, every last one of them can equip everything minus the 'worse' skills, like Hard Light or whatever those pseudo-passives are called. Hell, I've had enough skill slots to use all of them and more. On my mages I've actually managed to have extra skill slots that I have nothing to do with. Grand Summoners don't even have as many skills to equip as Evokers or Lantern Bearers. But just because you don't or don't see anyone using the skill doesn't mean they're never used. Like with melee classes. The skills that aren't "ever used" are used quite a bit more often than you would imagine. I've seen people monoclass just because they didn't have enough skill slots for anything else.
I understand that the goal is to make people mix and match what they want, but that doesn't really seem fair when mages can use literally everything they want and more.
Re: Skill Slots Suggestion - Daisuke - 12-05-2014
That's the entire point of a mage though
Mages are versatile casters with a bunch of spells
All a Void Assassin does is get behind you and cut your throat
That's like saying "Evokers shouldn't be the only ones able to hit really high numbers even though they're a Nuke Mage and this is their concept".
Look at MG. Versatile with various shells that have different effects. Scales with will.
Monk. Various different techniques that hit certain elements, you know what setting sun and aid scales with?
Verglas, Different techniques with different playstyles that can be chained into each other. Will scaling and will growth.
All of those can play very differently despite being the same class.
Now look at BK, Ghost, Kensei, VA.
They're very straightforward and it's generally going to be their innates and stats that decide how effective they are. You can't be a BK and expect to hit elemental weaknesses, scale with almost every stat, or switch between onhit effects.
Does this take away from their core identity or have a large impact on how they play? Not in the slightest. Say a BK doesn't get to equip all their skills. Do they stop wearing heavy armor, having tons of defense and crit evade, and having low amounts of offensive options? Do kenseis stop being a crit/dodge machine because of their innates? Does ghost not get stronger as they go lower in HP? Will a VA not try to get behind you for the flank bonus?
That's what I'm talking about.