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+--- Thread: Leveling out VIT (/showthread.php?tid=4561)
Re: Leveling out VIT - Soapy - 05-19-2017
After further consideration, I think we could maybe bump the numbers 1 lower.
6 per point of vit, 2 per point of str
HP is just really good, and shifting a little bit of it to a different stat won't have much of an impact when at least half the tanks in the game have str anyway.
Whatever happens, I think further tweaking down the line is unavoidable.
Re: Leveling out VIT - Autumn - 05-19-2017
I agree with Soapy that HP is just the best possible tank stat in the game, there's not much that out-does it, if you have 1000 HP you can withstand most magic DPS builds with 10 RES lol, so tweaking is necessary, and is why I'm open to change personally.
Re: Leveling out VIT - Lolzytripd - 05-19-2017
I agree with soapy....
6 and 2 would be fine. I think it would solve the bloat problem right now, suitably nerf EI aswell,
I may have suggested that earlier.....
Re: Leveling out VIT - Ahalaniel - 05-19-2017
Those on the Discord have probably heard me complaining about VIT over the last week or so. It is above and beyond the most valuable stat.
1 VIT is 10 HP.
1 DEF is a 1% physical resistance.
1 RES is a 1% magical resistance.
In order for either of those "mitigation" stats to match VIT in value, you need to take over 1000 damage of either damage type (1000x0.01=10) in one damage roll. That right there is insane enough on its own. If you're taking on average 250 damage a turn, that makes VIT four times as valuable as either defensive stat. If that damage is split 60/40 - let's say 150 physical, 100 magical - in that scenario, 1 VIT is as effective as almost seven points into DEF and 10 points of DEF - at the same time. In that scenario, 1 VIT = 17 stat points elsewhere.
When you pick a resistance stat, you are only guarding against its respective damage type. VIT is effective against everything - magic and physical. And even further, it retains its value against resistance piercing attacks. VIT does not care about your true damage.
I am uncertain about relocating the HP gain to STR - I haven't given that enough thought to have a real opinion on the idea. My knee-jerk reaction (read: a bad idea) would be to cut VIT HP gain in half down to 5 (maybe even down to 4, or 3), and give DEF/RES a 2.5 HP gain each. People who invest into "tank" should be tanky, but it should require a significantly higher investment than it does right now.
The ramifications of slashing HP across the board for literally every character is a huge thing, though. There's a lot to consider before making such a drastic change, I'm sure, and I admittedly haven't given it enough thought myself - PVP would probably become even more of a clown fiesta than it is right now. Most likely a bad thing.
EDIT: I want to clarify I do not know if VIT being overvalued is a good or bad thing, and I do not know if changing things would be a good or bad thing. I am just trying to put VIT's value (and, subsequently, DEF/RES's value) into perspective.
Re: Leveling out VIT - Kameron8 - 05-20-2017
"Ahalaniel" Wrote:Those on the Discord have probably heard me complaining about VIT over the last week or so. It is above and beyond the most valuable stat.
1 VIT is 10 HP.
1 DEF is a 1% physical resistance.
1 RES is a 1% magical resistance.
In order for either of those "mitigation" stats to match VIT in value, you need to take over 1000 damage of either damage type (1000x0.01=10) in one damage roll. That right there is insane enough on its own. If you're taking on average 250 damage a turn, that makes VIT four times as valuable as either defensive stat. If that damage is split 60/40 - let's say 150 physical, 100 magical - in that scenario, 1 VIT is as effective as almost seven points into DEF and 10 points of DEF - at the same time. In that scenario, 1 VIT = 17 stat points elsewhere.
A decent chunk of this is misleading.
Comparing Vit versus Def/Res doesn't need to account for damage taken in one attack. 1% physical resistance will equal out with 1 Vit when you take 1000 damage to your effective health, which isn't just your HP value. Effective health is the amount of damage you can soak before dying, and is a function of your %DR and your total HP. That means taking 250 damage a turn makes 1 defense of equal use to 1 vit once you've gotten to four rounds, assuming you quite literally have 1 Defense.
See here:
If you want me to go into more specific math I can, but the point I'd get around to making is that Vit is not inherently stronger than the other defensive stats since they scale multiplicatively with one another when calculating your effective health.
That said, I agree with the OP. Nerfing Vit pulls a little bit of power from one half of that equation, which still helps with everyone getting it. I still think something will need to be done that ties classes to soft caps later down the line, but any little bit helps.
Re: Leveling out VIT - Snake - 05-20-2017
Of course we need to move VIT's HP to CEL then.
Jokes aside. Why not just increase how much you lose from diminishing returns on VIT for all races, instead of moving it around to make certain tank builds better than others? (Such as Fire Mage no-skill ekusplosion set.)
The problem here is just people going beyond 40 VIT to reach giant amounts of health when everything adds up, no?
Re: Leveling out VIT - Ahalaniel - 05-20-2017
"Kameron8" Wrote:Comparing Vit versus Def/Res doesn't need to account for damage taken in one attack. 1% physical resistance will equal out with 1 Vit when you take 1000 damage to your effective health, which isn't just your HP value. Effective health is the amount of damage you can soak before dying, and is a function of your %DR and your total HP. That means taking 250 damage a turn makes 1 defense of equal use to 1 vit once you've gotten to four rounds, assuming you quite literally have 1 Defense.
This is a very good point, and I had not considered it. Considering a total EHP pool is definitely the better perspective here. Kind of ashamed I didn't approach it that way initially.
However, still consider you'd have to have a really high HP to break even with the defensive stats before dying. Most people are not going to take 1000 damage (most health pools I see hover around 600-850) and live.
I did some more thinking, and I honestly think that high health pools are better for the game. Player damage tends to scale off into crazyland, from what I have seen, and getting turbo nuked isn't fun. What I still don't like is that deciding whether or not to put points into VIT are practically a false choice. Is it ever a good idea not to heavily invest in it? (I mean, people do like to say "Tank is the meta", and I'm sure most of the time people mean "VIT is the meta". Am I wrong?)
The more I think about this topic, the less certain I am about it.
Re: Leveling out VIT - Kameron8 - 05-20-2017
"Ahalaniel" Wrote:I did some more thinking, and I honestly think that high health pools are better for the game. Player damage tends to scale off into crazyland, from what I have seen, and getting turbo nuked isn't fun.
One of the biggest issues is that people with crazy high health pools can turbo nuke people anyway. There's no incentive to build Strength if there's any options for weapons that don't use it, since you can instead put points into Vit/Def/Res/Literally any actually useful stat. Everyone can have their own opinion on what the baseline tankiness of a player should be -- and in this case, it's extremely high in almost every competitive setup -- but I personally don't think it should be as high as it is.
There's been talks of tweaking most physical weapon scalings to use Strength, which is a good solution to making it useful in my eyes. But if that doesn't happen, this is a solution that works decent enough at encouraging investment marginally more often. I'm still personally invested in class limiting soft caps, so mages don't wall up as much as a Black Knight. Going deep into that train of thought would be a huge off topic tangent, so I'll avoid it.
Re: Leveling out VIT - Neus - 05-20-2017
The original suggestion doesn't really solve anything, as far as I can tell. It just makes it so people who want a lot of STR for whatever reason are still just as tanky (or even tankier, perhaps) and everyone else is slightly less tanky.
Re: Leveling out VIT - Yashatari - 06-08-2017
If i may revive this old thread for a moment, I'd like to suggest one other thing that i didn't see mentioned.
In regards to the original post, I'd say something similar, But in a slightly different direction.
Vitality is the main concern, Alot of people either seem to support or criticize this idea(Because it affects their unkillable tank)
I think we are all a bit tired of seeing some tanky priest doing pvp with 1000+ health, Taking half damage from everything, Then healing themself for 200+ with Malmelo and Graft while still being able to do like 100 damage with basic attacks, Fire tiles, and movement affects to do well over 200 a turn, Which is practically a crit build but with enviromental effects. They can match your damage and tank FAR less damage than you, AND heal it.
It's fucking disgusting, and the only thing it does is stroke their ego in a one sided pvp fight.
The suggestion
I'd rather not have str give more hp then Sanctity, As Sanctity is more of a Psuedo tank/support stat.
Strength will give +1 or nothing at all, I can see it giving some since it's physical effort which lets be honest is exercise, Which makes you healthy. It makes sense to a degree, But let's not push it too much.
Defense will give +2 (More reason to invest that Tank role, While not being too far behind in health if it's not as heavy of a focus.
Resist will give +1 (gives back a little to mages
Vitality will give +6 (Just Crackers Nerf it)
As far as the idea i'm mentioning on top of the original posters, I'd like to suggest a % system. Much like how apt boosts your stats per 6, Have vitality give you + 1 - 2% extra total hp per 6 Vit.
The Math
Assuming everything is put to 42 that gives hp...
Str 42/ Def 84/ Res 42/ Vit 252/ Sanc 84/ and +1 per stat point spent
That's 714
714 x 1.07(1% per 6 Vit) = 763
714 x 1.14(2% per 6 Vit) = 813
I think this would fix most of the issues with rediculous health builds, Lowering the overall average to a more balanced level.
Even if you don't spec into some of the stats above, You won't be missing that much health comparativly, It'll open a couple new ways to build without having to have Vit at 30-40 for every build, And i've proven that it won't hurt balance too much as we'll still achieve a more tolerable hp threashhold.
If you need more convincing, How about this. You can always change the vit per 6 % bonus to various values in the future, Test it out for a couple builds, Don't like it we can always change it back to how it is now. For a game that desires Flexability, Creativity and Uniqueness, Practically demanding Vit isn't putting up a good image of those ideals.
The only downside i can see this having, Is pve. Certain mobs might get stronger and others might get weaker.