+- NEUS Projects (https://neus-projects.net/forums)
+-- Forum: Sigrogana Legend 2 (OOC) (https://neus-projects.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=8)
+--- Forum: Balance Fu (https://neus-projects.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=11)
+--- Thread: Invigoring STR (again) (/showthread.php?tid=5006)
Re: Invigoring STR (again) - Snake - 10-14-2017
Having to invest in GUI is what kinda makes any basic hitting builds so underpowered due to the lack of points to invest in defenses, SAN, FAI or WIL, like autohit/spellcasting builds do. Thus why STR needs a share on Critical Damage, imo.
STR at half of GUI's efficiency won't completely steal GUI's role. GUI matters much, much more than STR in general. It gives precious skill slots, a bonus to hit when flanking and reduces farshot penalty, while STR just lol gives encumbrance/BW like it's a big deal and that's it. The maximum critical damage you can exploit from STR will always be divided by two when compared to GUI, so what's the problem there? If you're going full GUI/STR, that means your other stats WILL be sacrificed for the sake of stronger critical hits.
A char with 73 (60 Scaled) STR/GUI would (probably) have a maximum of a 190% multiplier to critical hits (and thus, some weapons would probably need to have their critical damage checked, as Fern said. But in general, the only two things one needs to worry about are Swords, due to Voltiger, and Axes, due to their buffs to critical damage from Talent [Might want to make the talent also reduce their Hit ratio? Would be fun]. Polearms are generally weak so it would be fair to them.). And said critical hit also get reduced by half no matter how strong they are, due to how tanks and damage reduction work. Or the chance can always be nulled by BK + Bleached Fang torso.
Re: Invigoring STR (again) - Raigen.Convict - 10-15-2017
Make Str viable again with Kunai's suggestion please. for too long have I regretted the thought of trying to build for meaningful damage to be trumped by people who use no strength and just crit through whatever defenses you have.
Re: Invigoring STR (again) - Chaos - 10-15-2017
"Snake" Wrote:Having to invest in GUI is what kinda makes any basic hitting builds so underpowered due to the lack of points to invest in defenses, SAN, FAI or WIL, like autohit/spellcasting builds do. Thus why STR needs a share on Critical Damage, imo.No, giving STR critical damage will not affect how good GUI is. However, it will not make much of an impact to most people that normally dump STR. You are suggesting that we add a bit of critical damage to STR without touching GUI's own contribution, which helps critical builds but won't make anyone reconsider dumping STR, due to the boosts it gets from APT and other sources. Limiting that boost to only mêlée weapons will narrow it further, and make the stat once again ignored by a number of ranged builds.
STR at half of GUI's efficiency won't completely steal GUI's role. GUI matters much, much more than STR in general. It gives precious skill slots, a bonus to hit when flanking and reduces farshot penalty, while STR just lol gives encumbrance/BW like it's a big deal and that's it. The maximum critical damage you can exploit from STR will always be divided by two when compared to GUI, so what's the problem there? If you're going full GUI/STR, that means your other stats WILL be sacrificed for the sake of stronger critical hits.
A char with 73 (60 Scaled) STR/GUI would (probably) have a maximum of a 190% multiplier to critical hits (and thus, some weapons would probably need to have their critical damage checked, as Fern said. But in general, the only two things one needs to worry about are Swords, due to Voltiger, and Axes, due to their buffs to critical damage from Talent [Might want to make the talent also reduce their Hit ratio? Would be fun]. Polearms are generally weak so it would be fair to them.). And said critical hit also get reduced by half no matter how strong they are, due to how tanks and damage reduction work. Or the chance can always be nulled by BK + Bleached Fang torso.
If you want STR to do critical damage while making the stat one to take seriously, you would need to give STR 1 critical damage per point, and either take out GUI's bonus or halve it. (If this makes Axes ridiculous, halve Berserker Shell's bonus, but only if STR becomes the main critical damage source)
Re: Invigoring STR (again) - Lolzytripd - 10-16-2017
chaos he was more bringing up a point, pre gr guile didn't exist and crit damage was static.
now it does, crit damage is horrible without guile, and basic attacking crit builds (the primary users of strength) need ANOTHER stat to do their thing.
auto hitters, did not get a new mandatory stat, it instead became much easier to simultanesouly tank magic and physical, build crit evade, and they even got a new snazzy optional stat that gives them enhanced racial effects and even MORE health.
autohit builds do equal damage to basics, have more health, have higher defenses, and usually more FP
meaning screwing with guile hurts basic attackers more, even just shifting the numbers over to strength will accomplish nothing.
Str giving increased power to basic attacks only would be a good starting point.
Re: Invigoring STR (again) - Snake - 10-16-2017
That ^
STR already benefits autohits/magic by a far shot due to cinders, scaling and Fire ATK all at once. It's now its turn to give a helping hand to basic hitters, melee or not.
This is just how balance is supposed to run, no? Better than nerfing three to five things is to just buff one and be done with it forever.
Re: Invigoring STR (again) - Sarinpa1 - 10-16-2017
I know this is going to be incredibly vague and not saying much but I expected people'd show up and mention their exploits needed.
There's people I've seen performing damage in 300s 400s by basic attacks.
There's people bragging they can get it higher.
I suggest that's investigated before drastic changes are done to one of the main stats for weapons used in basic attacking. Because as far as I can tell, melee attackers are not in a bad spot. Doubly so with the evasion. Which was said and conveniently ignored.
Now to the points brought up, crits give you momentum. More than one if you've fleur. Basic attacks don't meet evasion. (Y'know, not having 90% or ur hit, but rather the full 100%) There's onhit effects and all, but their overall accuracy is better.
What you people are pushing for is blazing crystal rose + repel combo for ridiculous damage.
So, no.
Re: Invigoring STR (again) - Lolzytripd - 10-16-2017
those 300-400 damage builds could easily do the same if not better damage with auto hits.
you really only start seeing 300-400 basic attack crits with
A) daggers adding bothing attacks
B) Death knighting
C) Voltiger +sidecut/sillcut
D) Absolute death+hunted status (note neither on their own is oppressive, but as multipliers, they synergize and enhance each other)
Now note you can actually do B-D together but the setup time is obnoxious.
B and D can be done to enhance autohit damage aswell.
but if you want to count death knighting you have to remember its supposed to be equal to charge minding/ other invocations.
Re: Invigoring STR (again) - Fern - 10-16-2017
Usually, whenever I get a 400+ critical hit, it's because of Absolute Death + Hunted + Voltiger at once. It also happens when the enemy has absolutely no defense, so there's that too.
But yes, Lolzy is right about the sources. I'd dare say another one can be Excel and Crit Axe builds, but the first one needs setup (even with conversion gloves) and the second one... well, critical axe builds in general are pretty easy to pull off. Which is why if STR becomes a crit damage modifier of some kind, these axe builds should be looked at.
Re: Invigoring STR (again) - Argonus - 10-16-2017
Maybe if battle weight had more impact for characters who wear lighter armor or take talents to reduce weight of gear? Like if you're below half your total battle weight you can actually get a bonus to hit/ evade? That way it gives more value to sub talents that reduce weapon weight and give strength more use across the board instead of just for heavy armor users.
Re: Invigoring STR (again) - Chaos - 10-17-2017
"Lolzytripd" Wrote:chaos he was more bringing up a point, pre gr guile didn't exist and crit damage was static.So you're telling me that GUI stretches basic attackers into pumping another stat, but giving an option to consolidate critical damage into STR somehow doesn't help this? Unless you're focusing on dagger builds and ignoring absolutely every other weapon in existence, you make no sense on this end.
now it does, crit damage is horrible without guile, and basic attacking crit builds (the primary users of strength) need ANOTHER stat to do their thing.
auto hitters, did not get a new mandatory stat, it instead became much easier to simultanesouly tank magic and physical, build crit evade, and they even got a new snazzy optional stat that gives them enhanced racial effects and even MORE health.
autohit builds do equal damage to basics, have more health, have higher defenses, and usually more FP
meaning screwing with guile hurts basic attackers more, even just shifting the numbers over to strength will accomplish nothing.
Str giving increased power to basic attacks only would be a good starting point.
I'm also uncertain on whether or not you're acknowledging the existence of Global Evasion, which is far more likely to harass autohit builds than basic attack builds. (If an autohit build has to build up SKI/LUC for the purpose of avoiding Evasion, you might as well throw out the distinction) While we're sporting Global Evasion and Autohit builds are likely to run into it, we do not need to give people a free +10~20 damage to their basic attacks while allowing them to continue dumping STR. (since once again, APT and friends will ensure decent STR without any points placed into the stat)
Also, the same kind of setup basic attack builds use for extreme damage is the same kind of setup that autohits need, except they don't get Additional Damage/Voltiger/etc. Swift Autohits are being dealt in another thread.
"Argonus" Wrote:Maybe if battle weight had more impact for characters who wear lighter armor or take talents to reduce weight of gear? Like if you're below half your total battle weight you can actually get a bonus to hit/ evade? That way it gives more value to sub talents that reduce weapon weight and give strength more use across the board instead of just for heavy armor users.A decent idea, but it would need a static number, rather than 50%, if it wanted to prompt STR pumping. It might be worth a closer look, though.