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+--- Thread: Beaten down, and can't get up again. (/showthread.php?tid=5643)
Re: Beaten down, and can't get up again. - Noxid - 09-14-2018
My point is if they have to spend M curing interference beaten down and any other status effect that's M they aren't spending elsewhere thus allow the other team to gain tempo in the fight. If they only have one dude healing then you burst him riddle with status effects and generally overwhelm him so he can't plug the holes in the leaking bucket that is now his team. If they have more than one healer then their team is gonna be lacking in other departments and you can exploit that too. Something as simple as detogate would mess someone employing these tactics by forcing them to spend M getting close to each other. Look use a bit of creative thinking and take it as a challenge rather than taking it to the forums every time.
Kunai "retarded as fuck" is not really much of a valid arguments. Teamwork tactics are important and nerfing them just because you are too anti social to make a proper team without our PvP daddy kira-sama. If battle length is your real worry then the culprit is people posting excessively long posts every time they perform any kind of basic action in combat. But should we nerf RP? Probably not.
Also your dullahan example has its counters too. A dullahan we both love and know experienced this first hand when Kira sucked him dry repeatedly of FP until he was...well you know.
Re: Beaten down, and can't get up again. - Autumn - 09-14-2018
Often enough the statuses can be debilitating enough to be worth cleansing, especially if you can move around really fast and have the distance advantage, then its usually absolutely safe for you to do this, when healing basically outshines every other form of support, then its a problem, but this doesn't directly nerf healing but rather it nerfs the abusiveness of healing being able to pick up allies from 0 health and sky rocket them to 100% health in a multitude of ways, it doesn't warrant nerfing every other heal in the game when the problem is getting picked up from KO and healing to full because of a PR + Pheonix or Second Chance base heal.
If I were to suggest a nerf in spite of a fight because healing is bullshit I'd rather just nerf healing all together, but this harms one of the problem cases thats been within the game forever, it is only recently that its been employed by several groups, and quite frankly I get sick and tired of watching or even participating in these fights, as do many other people who voice this to me.
Personally, battle length is not one of my worries, I'd rather have fun by focusing on RP first and foremost, and as do many other people, after all the game is not meant to be a PvP saltfest focused on ganking people randomly and calling it an event.
Re: Beaten down, and can't get up again. - Yark - 09-14-2018
The cool thing about strong PvP builds is that anyone can use them. As Noxid said, when you have more than one person responsible for support and/or healing, you really lose steam in the way of dealing sufficient damage. If you encounter a strong strategy employed by an enemy team, you can either build to counter it, or adopt that strategy for yourself.
Having said that, I understand that most people choose their classes and skills based on the role-play of that specific character, meaning that swapping around your build breaks immersion and is unattractive. It makes sense to me, and my advice to those people is to stop picking fights with other players, because you're only going to get upset.
Re: Beaten down, and can't get up again. - Autumn - 09-14-2018
Please stay on topic Yark.
Re: Beaten down, and can't get up again. - Farkon - 09-14-2018
"Spoops" Wrote:Please stay on topic Yark.
Yark is on topic, let me clarify.
In most RPGs that when healing output is higher, then damage is lower. An opposing side can take advantage of that and gain the upper hand in terms of tactics and tempo. The same is true for this game since just having the threat of interference or silence causes healing output to go down, not having to actually use those status effects. A strong pvp group then can take advantage of this and threaten those status effects while doing more damage output then healing's output.
That said, reviving from badly beaten already incurs a high penalty to momentum for more then 1 turn and all sources of reviving that I've used have limitations to prevent abuse already. Adding in a 50% healing reduction wouldn't solve this problem, it would just further extend the battle by causing more turns being used to restore the revivee.
How reviving becomes abused is actually if there are multiple sources of revive available (and there are, anyone can use Sal) Preventing another revive for 3 or more turns after a previous revive would prevent this abuse moreso if there are multiple supports.
Re: Beaten down, and can't get up again. - Autumn - 09-14-2018
You seem to think that this game is like most RPGs when its not, a dedicated support can make up for the lack of damage in any slot simply because of how powerful healing is compared to damage, healing is stronger than damage that is a fact currently.
This doesn't directly effect healing though, it instead effects the insane ease of getting yourself to full health after reviving instantly, all it takes is a healer slower than your entire party, whatever you may say its simply not teamwork, its an abuse-able and highly annoying strategy that people seem to employ all the god damn time, and it makes fights never end, and secondly makes bursting a particular member of the party never worth it to ever do, it streamlines fights and stigmatizes healers as being the strongest members of any party as they have been for a very very very long time.
I fail to see why this shouldn't be a thing, but I can totally see why certain cliques are all for it, because they abuse it themselves and don't want it to go away.
Re: Beaten down, and can't get up again. - Farkon - 09-14-2018
A healer getting someone up fully after a revive is a perfect world scenario requiring more then just one source of healing.
Again,there's not only multiple ways to counter this but damage has far more modifiers and damage output then healing.
Healing can't crit and the more powerful sources have cooldowns, while you have builds with over 50% crit damage, Analyze Weakness, Bloody Palms, Voltiger, Hunter Wind, Ghost Killer, Charge Mind, Fear of Death, etc to further amplify damage. All of these stay active after koing someone and therefor it's easy to simply kill someone who has been revived once again who only has 3m or less.
The real problem is multiple revives in a short span of turns.
Re: Beaten down, and can't get up again. - Autumn - 09-14-2018
You can argue until you're blue in the face, that doesn't make your argument any less wrong here, I've already stated what the actual problem is and its not what you say, Sal Volatile heals for very little as compared to second chance and Pheonix.
The only time that Badly beaten causes you to have less than 6m is when you die multiple times, and again that just brings me to my first point, why is it a viable strategy to apply extremely powerful healing until you cheese your way through a fight, that's way too brain dead, as is most of building tanky healers but I digress.
I've already said what I've needed to say by now, you won't hear much else argument from me and I won't change my stance, simply because one group wants to keep their cheesy strategy and is sending everyone in it out of the woodworks to keep it.
Re: Beaten down, and can't get up again. - Snake - 09-14-2018
Oh well.
Badly Beaten needs to be changed to get a duration of 5 rounds, and reduce momentum by X (X = equal to current duration left), along with reducing the debuffed person's healing received by (X * 20)%.
Imo, I'd rather have 'actual' revives being attributed to invocation spells, not basic magic you can cast for an easy 3-4M. A good suggestion for it can be a C-rank Curate invocation being added, which will cleanse Badly Beaten (+X amounts of debuffs, X being Rank LV) AND revive all of your downed party members to a maximum of (50% of your Scaled FAI) HP% restored.
So with that in, Second Chance should have a 6 round cooldown attached to it.
Re: Beaten down, and can't get up again. - Autumn - 09-14-2018
At this point we'll just have to see what Dev thinks, since a conclusion cannot be met unfortunately.