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+--- Thread: ["Global Fleur" Proposal] A "fix" to Basic Attacks (/showthread.php?tid=7484)
RE: ["Global Fleur" Proposal] A "fix" to Basic Attacks - Autumn - 12-03-2020
As was said before, this change vastly opens up build diversity and character potential, allowing for more class setups to synergize with eachother and still feel viable, but comes with some obvious downsides, the real argument from here on is if those downsides are worth the change, I say it is given that I've wanted to expand beyond duelist for basic attackers for a while now, but it always ends up poorly.
A "Dark Knight" Hexer/BK for example could on paper perform well, but with no action economy to go off of crits with they're often better off just being spellcasters, this change would most likely make them viable.
Another classic example is Monk/BK, many people have wanted to explore that trope for a while now as well.
RE: ["Global Fleur" Proposal] A "fix" to Basic Attacks - Noxid - 12-04-2020
I always thought the best argument for such a change was that it would mean basic attacks could be balanced universally without having to worry about making one specific class too strong. In this case duelist. Any change to them always has to keep duelist in mind.
RE: ["Global Fleur" Proposal] A "fix" to Basic Attacks - Fern - 12-04-2020
(12-04-2020, 03:55 AM)Noxid Wrote: I always thought the best argument for such a change was that it would mean basic attacks could be balanced universally without having to worry about making one specific class too strong. In this case duelist. Any change to them always has to keep duelist in mind.
That's honestly a pretty good point. I can attest to often seeing mention that "if basics actually became good then Duelist would become too absurd."
Thanks to everyone for the feedback by the way, I feel that the multiple perspectives shed light on different things in a way that genuinely contributes. I will say that I used to push for more class specific skills that encourage basic attacking similarly to Bloody Shift (Shapeshifter) and the Verglas stance effects for basics done with Fists. I ended up thinking that it's just easier and probably less time consuming to make crits give +2M by default while changing Fleur to be something else (or as people have grown accustomed to calling it, Global Fleur.)
I do agree that the numbers basics tend to shed are pretty laughable compared to several other classes (unless you hyper specialize) and that, perhaps, "Global Fleur" wouldn't particularly fix that issue (not entirely.)
I honestly want it more for the fresh new character routes that can happen with it, and it's just fun sounding to me. I think it may be possible to worry about the basic attack damage numbers after the fact, if they're still an issue by then.
RE: ["Global Fleur" Proposal] A "fix" to Basic Attacks - Noxid - 12-04-2020
The other solution I've always thought of this is to just remove it completely and replace it with a new effect. It achieves the same effect of making it easier to balance basics. Although it would be a lot less fun. Three actions is fun.
RE: ["Global Fleur" Proposal] A "fix" to Basic Attacks - Shujin - 12-05-2020
I mean in terms of Character versatility I certainly approve of it. I catch myself often just slot in Duellist almost only for Fleur even though other classes would be funner, but yeah!
The point that its probably easier to globally Balance around is a good one. In favor of fun. Basic attacks is certainly the most fun gameplay style for me, Risk and Reward styles are fun...Even though we kinda lost a bit of the reward :thonk:
Out of curiosity, what would you want Fleur to be then? or cross that bridge when we are in front of it? The resist not losing mementum?
Also are we talking "Global Fleur" with the same rules as Fleur, or just reverting to old school +2M crits once per weapon/person?
RE: ["Global Fleur" Proposal] A "fix" to Basic Attacks - Noxid - 12-05-2020
(12-05-2020, 06:50 AM)Shujin Wrote: I mean in terms of Character versatility I certainly approve of it. I catch myself often just slot in Duellist almost only for Fleur even though other classes would be funner, but yeah!
The point that its probably easier to globally Balance around is a good one. In favor of fun. Basic attacks is certainly the most fun gameplay style for me, Risk and Reward styles are fun...Even though we kinda lost a bit of the reward :thonk:
Out of curiosity, what would you want Fleur to be then? or cross that bridge when we are in front of it? The resist not losing mementum?
Also are we talking "Global Fleur" with the same rules as Fleur, or just reverting to old school +2M crits once per weapon/person?
Honestly I don't know what I'd want in the end. My thoughts are very mixed on it. I fairly certain dev would be able to come up with something that works well though.
RE: ["Global Fleur" Proposal] A "fix" to Basic Attacks - Autumn - 12-05-2020
(12-05-2020, 06:50 AM)Shujin Wrote: I mean in terms of Character versatility I certainly approve of it. I catch myself often just slot in Duellist almost only for Fleur even though other classes would be funner, but yeah!
The point that its probably easier to globally Balance around is a good one. In favor of fun. Basic attacks is certainly the most fun gameplay style for me, Risk and Reward styles are fun...Even though we kinda lost a bit of the reward :thonk:
Out of curiosity, what would you want Fleur to be then? or cross that bridge when we are in front of it? The resist not losing mementum?
Also are we talking "Global Fleur" with the same rules as Fleur, or just reverting to old school +2M crits once per weapon/person?
My hope is that with the existence of "3rd weapons" now available to us in the form of Vampire Bite/Ninja Shuriken Swaps/Shift strike, the current Fleur rules would still remain in place, given that with a "3rd weapon" you can attack > sub attack > banquet > 4th action.
RE: ["Global Fleur" Proposal] A "fix" to Basic Attacks - Balor - 12-06-2020
(12-03-2020, 06:00 PM)Senna Wrote: I'll be real with you on this one. While my opinion probably doesn't matter, I'll put my input nonetheless.
Should we have Fleur global instead of locked to duelist main? I've loved that, yes, but that comes at a price; the balancing nightmare.
That price is rebalancing a lot of classes, items, and so on. I'd like to say it was locked to the duelist main class only for a reason. In my eyes, this is opening Pandora's box. It would be fun at first, but it will become a nightmare once others begin to make VERY anti-fun combinations. There are a few I can think of at the top of my head as well.
Yes, I'd love the idea, but I've heard this song before, and it sounds like a lot of pain.
Personally? I think it's a terrible idea that doesn't actually tackle a lot of the problems we think it will. Infact I think so long as we don't have the actual numbers, damage calculations, mechanical interactions, etc all on paper we can't even begin to balance it and I feel that such a broad change here will basically stop us from touching up on the issues we already face with basic attackers and our reliance on Volcanic, Vorpal Fishing, crutches and gimmicks.
Will it be cool and fun? Yes.
Will this fix anything? I dunno. There are too many issues to begin with, and I can't see this doing much for the game besides breaking it further. To which people need to cut the pretense of balance, and just admit we want more cool shit. Which I think is acceptable considering Dev seems to also operate on whatever he thinks is cool when he reworks or makes classes.
RE: ["Global Fleur" Proposal] A "fix" to Basic Attacks - Sawrock - 12-06-2020
I think it's a great idea; it allows crit builds to flourish without forcing Duelist. It'd be better for the game to balance around Global Fleur simply because having more classes that can reliably basic attack is more fun (to me).
Since crit builds are basic attack builds, and since many basic attack builds are crit builds, this would make evade a more desirable choice, which means that the combo of LUC+CEL would be needed for evasion, and since you get hit and crit with LUC, it means more basic builds since LUC also pairs with SKI. DEF and RES are extremely splashable as-is (the only things they really need to splash with are each other, and VIT... which everyone needs.) It's just better to go through any chaos this will bring, because at the end of the rebalancing the game will be in a better place than it is now.
RE: ["Global Fleur" Proposal] A "fix" to Basic Attacks - Balor - 12-06-2020
(12-06-2020, 07:09 AM)Sawrock Wrote: I think it's a great idea; it allows crit builds to flourish without forcing Duelist. It'd be better for the game to balance around Global Fleur simply because having more classes that can reliably basic attack is more fun (to me).
Since crit builds are basic attack builds, and since many basic attack builds are crit builds, this would make evade a more desirable choice, which means that the combo of LUC+CEL would be needed for evasion, and since you get hit and crit with LUC, it means more basic builds since LUC also pairs with SKI. DEF and RES are extremely splashable as-is (the only things they really need to splash with are each other, and VIT... which everyone needs.) It's just better to go through any chaos this will bring, because at the end of the rebalancing the game will be in a better place than it is now.
You can find it great or fun. But there are a lot of issues that need to be tackled first and that's my major issue.
There are a lot of balance issues, QoL, numbers, bugs etc that are already issues for people who regularly play the game. That will likely just be expounded by major changes like this. However I've gone on about it long enough, and without the actual hard equations I can only make assumptions as basis to suggestions. I've said my piece and I hold firm in my opinion and observations.