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+--- Thread: ["Global Fleur" Proposal] A "fix" to Basic Attacks (/showthread.php?tid=7484)
RE: ["Global Fleur" Proposal] A "fix" to Basic Attacks - WaifuApple - 12-06-2020
I can only see this being a positive if it's put through an extensive testing phase on the test server before being pushed to the main one. This is a change that, while it sounds good on paper, comes with a lot of additional balance nightmares to be seen, that I'm sure will just make the state of things even worse than it is now for people until properly balanced up.
This in mind, it would be important to make sure that most of the opportunities for dread with it are identified and weeded out long before it's properly implemented. With how far reaching it will be, if that ends up not being the case it WILL just make things less fun for many people. Even if it'll be "cool" for others.
RE: ["Global Fleur" Proposal] A "fix" to Basic Attacks - Sawrock - 12-06-2020
hell yeah it’ll be cool for others
RE: ["Global Fleur" Proposal] A "fix" to Basic Attacks - Miller - 12-07-2020
The addition of a global fleur / three actions for basics hits would frankly be mostly a positive edition in my eyes, while I'd prefer the existence of basic hitting support flavored for each class; I have personal issues with the current existing ones that I won't get into.
Basic attacks could be looked at as a whole rather than basic hitting duelists being underperforming or overperforming and in turn, be balanced appropriately as such. This will not fix basic attacks by any means however, as pointed out by Drezdin; Volcanic is a crutch to punch through huge DR walls with actual consistency compared to vorpal. Multiple class combos would also open up in which otherwise, they would be impossible due to a lack of an actual action economy: (IE: Any Martial Artist basic hitting combo ever)
The main outlier problems in regards to this becoming a chance would be the existence of pseudo fleurs such as Twin Dance and Bloody Shift, the former being more so of an issue if the 'default critical momentum' for each weapon is 2, while the latter is a slighter issue in comparison in my eyes. If a global fleur would be implemented, it should likely operate similarly to how fleur currently works, otherwise we'd see it getting out of hand with the right combos.
With all that said
hell yeah it'll be cool, I could finally use verglas basics without shooting myself in the head and picking ghost MC
RE: ["Global Fleur" Proposal] A "fix" to Basic Attacks - Fern - 12-07-2020
(12-06-2020, 12:28 PM)WaifuApple Wrote: I can only see this being a positive if it's put through an extensive testing phase on the test server before being pushed to the main one. This is a change that, while it sounds good on paper, comes with a lot of additional balance nightmares to be seen, that I'm sure will just make the state of things even worse than it is now for people until properly balanced up.
This in mind, it would be important to make sure that most of the opportunities for dread with it are identified and weeded out long before it's properly implemented. With how far reaching it will be, if that ends up not being the case it WILL just make things less fun for many people. Even if it'll be "cool" for others.
It'd only be a nightmare with a few specific things (i.e Twin Dance, Volcanic, Akimbo...) which have been mentioned already, and are meant to be changed accordingly if it's seriously considered at all, which is why they've been brought up at the start and throughout the thread.
People already struggle to fight the average tank while having Fleur of all things due to basics' often semi-negligible damage, so I can't imagine myself why this would suddenly make it too much in a basic attacker's favor when the "best" option would still be Ghost with Claret Call stacking in a world where crit momentum tracking works differently.
If you made the momentum bonuses different and changed Fleur to say, reset repeat action on Critical Hit / not lose momentum on Resist! on crit / what have you, then it wouldn't be harder to balance the game because you make the idea of "three actions with crit" universal rather than restricted to a class that people are railroaded into if they want to be a decent basic attacker.
It's better than, say, having to make every change while accounting for the one specific class that can have three actions (Duelist) and needing to tip toe around it every single time Dev feels like adding a basic attacker skill/weapon/item/etc.
The worst thing I could see coming out of it is a Dullahan with Soul Rage having a pretty high momentum economy, and even then that's kind of sketchy because they always need to build SAN so it's difficult to afford basic attacker stats on them nearly most of, if not the entire time. Not to mention that they already possess a very good momentum economy as is and it wouldn't make it any better, because the best options would still not be doing a basic attack at all in their case.
The idea is fun sounding on paper not because it would be broken, but because more things can become decent even if they would still be largely underperforming against most of the current meta in the majority of the cases. People like their sandboxes, and some are pretty passionate about messing with character builds in this game. And when one of the main appeals of the game is to do that, then giving further opportunities to explore it more in-depth attracts more interest and investment.
Some people straight up don't want to play the game as is because of how railroady character building is if you want your character to be decent, so I feel this could alleviate that some.
RE: ["Global Fleur" Proposal] A "fix" to Basic Attacks - Tanasinn - 12-07-2020
You will never properly address the underlying game system issues so long as Fleur exists as the undying fulcrum upon which the game's balance hinges. The entirety of basic attacking, and by extension evasion, are all currently balanced with Fleur in mind because they have to be.
I'll state the obvious that I don't think anyone's flat-out said. Fleur is already global, effectively. Very nearly anyone who actually plans on doing basics in a serious 'I plan on not losing to anyone competent' manner is running ghost, or rarely, some other flavor of duelist. At best, you can get semi-effective gimmicks out that use basics right now without duelist main class. It's in the exact same place as it was when Kensei was nerfed/reworked, where you didn't see it as their true main class, and it had no bearing on its 'identity'. It was a crutch. It's still a crutch. It's killing build variety, it's killing the ability to balance the game, and it's boring. The attempts to kill 'everyone is a kensei' only lead to a solid year and a half of 'everyone is a ghost'. It's awful.
While this might not be the thread to say it in, Fleur either needs to be global (For the sake of build variety and letting people branch out and find more combinations), or to be removed (For the sake of build variety and letting basics be tuned up without 'but ghost can be fine sometimes so we can't touch it').