+- NEUS Projects (https://neus-projects.net/forums)
+-- Forum: Sigrogana Legend 2 (OOC) (https://neus-projects.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=8)
+--- Forum: Balance Fu (https://neus-projects.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=11)
+--- Thread: Harmonization of Sigrogana Legends 2 (/showthread.php?tid=10181)
Harmonization of Sigrogana Legends 2 - firehawk11 - 04-22-2023
Harmonization - In the world of TTRPG means everything feels the same. There is no real mechanical differences from classes or abilities you have in your system. 5th Edition Dungeons & Dragons is a real godo example of them trying to make every class feel the same. The fighter sword slash deals 1d8 of damage and the wizards fire-spell does 1d8 for an example, same damage, same attack just different flavor.
Sigrogana Legends 2 doesn't have hormonized classes in fact that is where it shines the most. The problem is a lot more complicated then what I am trying to say but i am willing to explore some of the problems which we had. Our current problems is a result of years of failed attempts which we thought we could do better in.
Phase 1 (Pre-Great Reckoning)
Before the Great Reckoning we had a system that was similar to Fir eEmblem growth system where you had an X percentile chance upon leveling up to gain +1 in the stat. If it was over 100% you always gained +! with a chance of +2. There were no soft caps, nothing that coudl slow you down but a lot of skills were auto-hit skills. What this meant is quite straight forwards you simple couldn't evade them. Which was nice meant tanks had a real place, maybe a bit to high of a standing.
We didn't have Apt, Guile or Sanc in this era. Something that I think made the game a little bit nicer since Racial Skills were based primarily off of the race's intended play stle. Hyattr were once of the highest Vit growth races so their racial Fire-breath skill was scaled from having high Vitality. Don't worry it still costed 40 FP to use without all of the fun traits but Channel Magic was also based from a Hyattr's Vit stat instead of needing a new stat called Sanc.
Items were interesting, we didn't use Scaled Weapon Attack. Magic was exclusively Will focused. The biggest upside to this system was the growth system, sure it made some character in some form Over-Powered but you could always Legend Extend to start the stat rerolling to try to get those better stats.
Phase 2 (Great Reckoning)
When the Great Reckoning took place it changed the game up forever. We now had stat point making Legend Extending less of a thing you can do infinitely for the chance of that perfect build but more so for that little bit of maximizing your builds. Elements were added making will less useful for pure mages since now you needed different stats for elements. At lunch we had onyl 3.5 stat points per level not 4.
This was the rise of the dreaded Tank mage, a mage who specialized in Vitality, Defend & Resistance. Since back in this Era magic was still auto-hits. These characters were hated and in this era dodging wasn't seem as viable.
Items also had SWA added with a bunch of different stats. Allowing you to be a Defend Black Knight with a Mythslayer sicne it scaled from defend (90% Defende Scaling). Yet in these two Era auto-hits were everywhere, in every class yet it didn't feel like we needed certain stats to even be viable.
This was the inclusion of the dreaded Sanc stat still I think do this day holds back many races from being their once Phase 1 glory. Like Hyattrs, not you need a completely other stat dumping 40 stats into.
Phase 3 (Great Reckoning 2:Electric Boogaloo)
This Era is the one we are currently in. One where Classes have their identifies but I feel builds themselves do not. We changed item scaling to be either one of three stats. Str, Guile, Wil. This means you now have to force your stat spread into one of those three groups to have decent SWA.
This isn't bad, trying to minimize the customizability of Phase 2: GR. Okay I can see tanks being powerful or maybe heaven forbid the evaders are meta. However this is where the system begins to feel like we are harmonizing it. Not only did we remove the different item scaling only allowing them to live on in small increases, we also stripped the customizable asspect of Sigrogana Legends but removing auto-hits, forcing people to build into Ski.
When nothing can hit and you need to put 55+ Scaked Skill into every build you know the system had a huge flaw. Where Ice is one of the primary elements people should use because of the mandatory Skill dump.
It doesn't feel like the system that changed from Phase 2 to Phase 3 was helpful. Now all we have are mandatory stats to grab and little to customize a character. It is hard to enjoy different characters when they all share this flaw with needing skill, yet more skill then Aptness, Then some Defensive stats. It leaves very little for actual diversity..
I reckon that we give ever class at-least one auto-hit skill. To help balance out this skill/cel meta that Sigrogana LEgends 2 has fallen into. We need something that makes the current meta fun, being forced to build the same stats always in just no fun, especially if my mage feels the same as my archer which feels the same as my monk. There has to be something more we can do with the system or change .
Let's not talk about how unviable str crit builds are with this system.
TL/DR - Skill is way to powerful to keep in rotation compared to other stats, every characters feels same-y with how the stats are laid out. Item scaling reinforces this same-y meta buildiing we got. Sanc does nothing but injure Races, the system needs a overhaul to avoid one stat superiority. As the name of the post, every character stat lay out feels nearly Harmonized.
This is my own take on playing since the game dropped, off and on...It just Phase 3 doesn't feel to me like Sigrogana Legends I grew to love...And the mandatory stats is what I believe is killing it slowly.
RE: Harmonization of Sigrogana Legends 2 - Lolzytripd - 04-22-2023
you know what would solve the skill vs cel, evade vs hit, issue
a..
a formula
a curved formula
a chosen formula that guides the results
a formula where as you reach 85-100% hit you never quite reach the end, and on the other end of the spectrum no matter how hard you try to become the chosen one of the matrix, you just can't get their hit to drop below 15%, where it took almost a difference of 50 to even get it to drop that far from 25...
maybe we have something like this already for stats...a form of diminishing returns...
RE: Harmonization of Sigrogana Legends 2 - firehawk11 - 04-22-2023
Yet Diminishing returns doesn't solve this issue, all it does it make it so you need MORE stat points invested to get the same result. It would work well if you didn't need to sink 60-80 points into SKill roughly, that's a huge investment form any character of any cladd with any skill set up outside Niche, Meme builds that use the new auto-hits we got like Lord's Flame, Divine Shower, so forth. That's the thing I said in a different thread. You always need hit when maxed to be higher then evade ands never 1 for 1, you needf minimal of around 20-50% chance, 1 in 5, 1 in 4, 1 in 3 or 1 in 2 hits will land. I wouldn't go lower then 1 in 3 though because at the moment evade builds are superior.
RE: Harmonization of Sigrogana Legends 2 - Lolzytripd - 04-22-2023
when I brought up Dr I was showing that we already have an exponential curve in the game.
For hit vs cel you could set the "mid point" and have it curve both ways as you approach those outcomes
You could do a formula or use a table of lies
RE: Harmonization of Sigrogana Legends 2 - Poruku - 04-26-2023
I don't think harmonization is a problem at this time. The problem is SKI/CEL and the current evasion system, a problem that was covered countless times.
The STR/WIL/GUI swa system is in my opinion very good. It makes stats more balanced and it makes builds more balanced between each other. Building just defense and vit and having huge damage just makes no sense from a game design or balance standpoint. I also don't think flooding the game with autohits are the solution. Many high end pvp players end up dropping evade when they want to push their build, because high end pvp builds are gouging hit and usually have autohits too and as such your evasion is useless. The meta is far too polarized and the problem is not harmonization but the design of hit/dodge. If evade is good, it's op. If it's not enough, it's useless and you lose.
Diminishing returns is a fine system, but SKI/CEL are the issue. We need some kind of move from dev addressing evasion
RE: Harmonization of Sigrogana Legends 2 - Sawrock - 04-27-2023
Use Lolzy’s method but have the to-hit roll happen five times
If you hit all five out of five times you get 100% damage
If you hit only 3 out of 5 times you get 60% damage
Class skills can mess with these rules: new fleur could allow a sixth roll to-hit if all five prior rolls succeed, and add 20% more damage (perhaps to just spears and swords due to lack of crit damage, fists too if you have a martial artist class equipped)
Hexers could get a bonus to infliction if all five hits proc
Rogues could get another roll to swap out of a good roll for their own evasion purposes
Summoner can
Magic Gunners can use one roll per round on a rounded gun
RE: Harmonization of Sigrogana Legends 2 - Poruku - 04-27-2023
Yeah but what about square guns