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+--- Thread: Evade Suggestion (CEL DR and Bellcurve hit) (/showthread.php?tid=10206)
Evade Suggestion (CEL DR and Bellcurve hit) - Poruku - 05-04-2023
Hear me out... We keep talking about glancing this and bring back evasion DR and whatever bell curve maths and such, but I wanted to add my suggestion that I think would not be frustrating to play against and would remove the need for gouging stats.
Instead of making hit and evade a direct comparison, we make them entirely independent.
There is no more evade value. Only evade DR and hit chance.
The attacker rolls to hit based on a bellcurve formula with his own hit. Skills and buffs can modify this chance. For instance, an evade buff or passive would mean attackers get reduced hit. This means you want accuracy even when fighting tanks, which makes sense. In actual combat, even heavily armored combatants will try to not get hit, but they will be far less effective at it.
Example:
50 hit: 10%
120 hit: 50%
170 hit: 75%
220 hit: 90%
etc. I dunno how the math would look like. But basically hitting high amounts of hit means good chance to hit but never guaranteed.
When an attack "misses", it applies evasion DR.
Your CEL determines how much damage reduction you get from evasion proccing.
10 CEL: 11%
50 CEL: 55%
so you can reach fairly good DR value with your CEL. Skills might increase this
Effects when an attack "misses"
- Defender always take some damage, reduced by evasion DR. So there is no "full evade"
- Skills do activate status resistance checks, but defender gains +1% bonus status resistance per evasion DR
- Weapon on-hit and on-crit effects don't proc
- Most skill effects that are guaranteed still activate, like fleur(?).
Evade from your gear and certain skills reduces enemy's hit value! Making your CEL more valuable. So evade builds would be centered around trying to have better chances of proccing evasion and increasing DR.
So for instance, maybe a guy has 200 hit, so his hit chance is 85%. The enemy has gear (25), a passive (20) and one buff (35) that reduce hit by 80, so he has 50% chance to hit instead of 85%. And his DR is 60% from raw CEL, so the evasion build is getting an averaged 30% damage reduction from evasion with, let's say, a medium amount of investment. Meanwhile, a tank build with no CEL invested would get about 1.5% DR from evasion in that scenario.
Balancing this part would be quite delicate but if the hit chance formula is solid and the ways to modify hit feel fair, the rest will fall into place.
Of course this is just an example but the idea would be that the common evasion build would be able to reach an evasion chance that gives them good DR without needing to focus their whole build around it, allowing them to get other kinds of defenses as well like good hp and DR. You just invest however much you want into each and it gives proportional results.
It would also put an element of ever-present RNG to common combat which would make plays less "guaranteed" even in tank matchups.
Skill would still be an important stat, but you wouldn't need to reach a specific amount or compete with gouged numbers on the other side. So overall people would be able to put stats a bit more spread out and focus on what they want. If they want high hit, they can invest more and there's skills that will help with that, but it would never completely invalidate evasion.
Evasion ignore abilities would still exist, but since evade no longer requires going all in, it would be more like a nice way to counter evaders instead of a way to completely destroy their build.
You would probably see many builds with something like 50 cel, 30 def, 30 res, and a bit of evade buffing, getting decent mileage out of hybriding. Or super dodge+tank builds who are very tough but aren't untouchable (still need SR versus DoTs...). Or maybe a tank gets like 30 CEL and a little bit of evasion passives to complement his tankiness.
Overall, it would take work to fine tune the math and balance, but if gotten right, I think it would be a great way to future-proof the balance of evade and hit and reduce the unfairness of certain matchups. No more feeling like your build is completely useless, whether that's because you can't hit a guy or you can't dodge a guy!
Of course, everything in this post is up for debate and ultimately it is not meant to be a suggestion to be implemented as is but something to offer alternatives and a new way to look at the evasion problem. I'd love to hear your feedback and discuss it!
RE: Evade Suggestion (CEL DR and Bellcurve hit) - Ray2064 - 05-04-2023
Mh....
I'm not against the idea since it's apparently fairly close to what Pre-GR2's dodge system was like, though seemingly seems more refined and actually seems like a pretty good idea in concept. I do however have a few nitpicks with your current presented idea :
That wouldn't quite solve the current problem of Evade being restricted to some classes, arguably only making the gap worse- since only a handful of classes could hope to reliably get the CEL DR through Evade Bonuses / Hit debuffs. Furthermore, there could be some very obnoxious combinations such as Mist Armor BK/ST essentially just stacking fat DR that way and abusing the system.
That'd call for a slight rework for evade/ hit buff/ debuffs, perhaps just drastically reducing their Cap and the extent they can have, OR making Evasion DR totally ignore DR acquired from DEF and RES to prevent the infamous tank-dodges.
Though I believe the bellcurve system you are suggesting should be reworked in some way, OR make Hit slightly more scarce so naturally reaching 95% Hit Chance isn't just a breeze. 220 Hit not even being all that high in our current era yet being a 90% chance before reductions. in your example is pretty insane.
Or all classes should have evade buffs in some form, since the former issue would call for them being near-necessary against people with High hit.
also don't punish basic attackers please please please
I'm also slightly confused since you stated that Gear would lower the enemy's Final Hit rate though your example shows that it simply lowers the opponent's hit by a flat amount ( Which is the better option, imo)
And what about stuff like Hexer curses , that'd also have to be adjusted to fir the current system
Also to make my former BK/ST Example somewhat clearer
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/718764842877452371/1103636023394717696/polk.PNG
Here's a build I did while HARDLY trying, using a Boneheart Mist Armor and a HMC, using a Mundane Magic Star with 100-ish SWA without 2H (I opted for a shield though it could be run with a glove instead) and 237 effective hit before BK passives and Invisible Weapon, and the build presumably having healing spells to it's disposal.
Here'd be the results :
Presumably, with a Galdric Mist armor, I expect the Gear Evade to be around 15, let's be slightly generous.
With the final Mist Armor buff, that'd be 20 bonus evade, so 20 hit removed from the opponent.
With ROP ? Minus 30 hit.
If your opponent is feared due to BK proccing the status rather easily ? Minus 8 hit.
Which all amounts to a virtual -73 hit given to the opponent, supposedly granting the defender a more than respectable chance to evade attacks.
So, we are looking at 40% DR.
On-top of their parries in the form of ROP/Stalemate.
On-top of Bulwark.
On-top of Indomitable.
On-top of their RES/DEF.
Possibly alongside the ST passive that reduce damage from spells.
With a respectable base HP, and healing spells, and on-top of that, a decent status resist of 86 if dodging.
See the problem ?
RE: Evade Suggestion (CEL DR and Bellcurve hit) - Poruku - 05-04-2023
I see what you're saying. I am not that worried as it would still be possible to hit them, and it would require them to invest in three different defensive stats + vit + armor + evade + defenses and evasion bonuses and such. Maybe it would be a very good build, but you are clearly making some sacrifices there.
Yeah, I think 90-95%%+ should be reserved for the high end, like 230+
And oh yeah I think evade bonuses should lower enemy hit not hit %chance, I must have made a mistake. Let me correct it
RE: Evade Suggestion (CEL DR and Bellcurve hit) - Ray2064 - 05-04-2023
(05-04-2023, 03:11 PM)Poruku Wrote: I see what you're saying. I am not that worried as it would still be possible to hit them, and it would require them to invest in three different defensive stats + vit + armor + evade + defenses and evasion bonuses and such. Maybe it would be a very good build, but you are clearly making some sacrifices there.My main issue doesn't really lie on the build being too strong since the cons you've stated to it are valid, but moreso that the system essentially would get profited off people simply riding along the wave rather than solving the eternal debate of Dodgies - Hitters
Yeah, I think 90-95%%+ should be reserved for the high end, like 230+
And oh yeah I think evade bonuses should lower enemy hit not hit %chance, I must have made a mistake. Let me correct it
And also....Maybe a build should only be able to dodge after having , what....20 scaled CEL ?
That way you don't randomly miss some uninvested tank even with something like 230 hit.
Though imo above 20 CEL the Hit Chance cap should be of...90-95% maybe , upon reaching something like 240 hit ?
RE: Evade Suggestion (CEL DR and Bellcurve hit) - Poruku - 05-04-2023
This system is inherently different than what we're used to. Instead of being dodgie vs tank it's just having evasion as an ever-present element of combat and an option you can build into for defense. The build you proposed wouldn't be necessarily op. And if they are able to get good evade and such, I don't see what's wrong with them riding the wave as it were. It makes CEL not a dead stat for any build while not making it a must have either.
I don't think there should be a threshold. Like I said in the post, a tank with no cel investment would get a tiny amount of dr and as such it would be an element of minor randomness to overly predictable tank matchups. Missing a tank isn't going to disrupt your gameplan much considering the on-miss effects
RE: Evade Suggestion (CEL DR and Bellcurve hit) - renowner - 05-12-2023
Honestly this sounds a lot like my own hot take, where I just wanted to remove Celerity as a stat entirely, and have skill be hit and evade. So that people who build skill don't waste stats against people with no dodge. . . And it becomes less of a stat tax to do so in the first place. People that completely ignore hit aren't as well off, and people who gouge skill to actually be able to play the game don't become worse off for it.
I at least like the basic concepts, I'm not sure on the exact numbers.
In the old days, we had growth rates. And because of that we always had at least a decent bit of skill, and always at least a little bit of celerity.