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Dragon Peasant - caliaca - 07-31-2023
So here's a lot of math about Dragon King's stuff.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1010302909927411753/1163360810177937508/image.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1010302909927411753/1163361011512922172/image.png
You don't have to read and parse all that.
The key takeaway is that, in their slots, Dragon King's Gauntlet and Dragon King's torso are essentially never worth it on stat effeciency alone.
Crownbleeder a large amount of the time will give you nearly as much STR while also giving crit, and Rogue Work Gloves will give you 10 crit mod which is just higher damage for any critter. For mages? Idol is always better with 10% damage.
Similarly, for Torso, 2-3 str cannot compete with Akmedis, Terra, or Bodyguard, each of which has better stats (some have equal armor but less wait) while the first 2 give 5-7.5 stats and regen for one and a passive for the other.
The main issue with the Dragon King's Set is it treats each of them as the same while ignoring the fact that each slot generally has a different effeciency. Dragon King's Helmet may be fine, cause for fire mages and critters there oft isn't a thing that can quite compete with it in it's niche. Well, some can like RoT or guile feather or badges, but it's not quite as egregious.
So I propose that we stop treating them all the same realize that they're different.
To that degree, give Dragon King's gauntlet +5% crit damage. This makes them an alternative to crownbleeder with the effect of soft cap replacing the fear one. This is arguable for which is stronger, especially as one is crit chance. It makes them worse damage wise than RWG still, but it's not as bad anymore.
For the torso, just +4 str. This makes it give 5-6 stat in most cases, which is more than terra and less than akmedis while not offering their passives. This lets it compete in the slot as an offensive minded chest piece.
Thanks for coming to my Ted(x) talk.
RE: Dragon Peasant - FaeLenx - 07-31-2023
Dragon King is thematically really cool but never really pays off when it comes to actual damage. I'm not sure how the math on that works, but I feel like this used to be less true back in the days before the evasion rework where overcapping strength was worth more and more easily achieved. Today, though, it just never really seems to pay off.
Edit: I'd personally prefer if they were just adjusted to give more strength since that seems to be their gimmick and adding additional crit supports one very specific build but leaves other strength-based builds lacking. It might as well be an actual means of getting ridiculous strength.
RE: Dragon Peasant - caliaca - 07-31-2023
(07-31-2023, 10:08 PM)FaeLenx Wrote: Dragon King is thematically really cool but never really pays off when it comes to actual damage. I'm not sure how the math on that works, but I feel like this used to be less true back in the days before the evasion rework where overcapping strength was worth more and more easily achieved. Today, though, it just never really seems to pay off.
Edit: I'd personally prefer if they were just adjusted to give more strength since that seems to be their gimmick and adding additional crit supports one very specific build but leaves other strength-based builds lacking. It might as well be an actual means of getting ridiculous strength.
That's what the torso does at least, MOAR STR.
To make it efficient it'd probably need to be like 7 str on the gloves which would be a +5. Just if anyone wants to know the numbers.
RE: Dragon Peasant - Snake - 08-01-2023
How about adding +5% damage per piece on top of it?
RE: Dragon Peasant - Autumn - 08-01-2023
Dragon King set pieces grant the stats in addition to increasing the soft cap and are already meta pick items, Akmedis is horribly strong to compare it to currently, and Dragon King Armor has always had a high base armor stat. Is there something I am missing in people suddenly thinking it's bad? I'd like to think it's the opposite. I'll give you that on the gloves, crownbleeder is generally better for basic attackers.
I believe the archetype that Dragon King is supposed to fulfill is weaker than a few other setups, that being the melee warrior focused upon special attacking rather than basic attacking. That said I was always looking forward to if there would be a 5-set effect for the pieces, something critical and well meaning.
I'd be okay with more STR granted from each piece personally, something like bumping it up to +10% STR per piece, you can only go so far in scaled STR before the soft caps bite your ass anyway.
RE: Dragon Peasant - FaeLenx - 08-01-2023
While the spreadsheet is an eyesore it does indicate that you don't get nearly as much effective stat value from the DK set as you do from just hodge podging together other more meta equipment. Which makes sense. Each piece has a very static value of 5% and 3 extra points onto your soft cap. Which is why it seems to be that each piece is roughly worth 3 strength with those investments after scaling. Which is okay, but it's not good or really meta in an environment where you're never going to want to go hard over strength cap due to the current build requirements.
RE: Dragon Peasant - Autumn - 08-01-2023
(08-01-2023, 08:13 PM)FaeLenx Wrote: While the spreadsheet is an eyesore it does indicate that you don't get nearly as much effective stat value from the DK set as you do from just hodge podging together other more meta equipment. Which makes sense. Each piece has a very static value of 5% and 3 extra points onto your soft cap. Which is why it seems to be that each piece is roughly worth 3 strength with those investments after scaling. Which is okay, but it's not good or really meta in an environment where you're never going to want to go hard over strength cap due to the current build requirements.
I agree with that, you get more raw value from Terrasque Shell except in cases where Armor matters in mitigating a ton of damage, as for Akmedis, that torso is honestly just overpowered, it gets roughly the same armor value, an innate DR, and a lot of things would have to be bumped up to it's level if we started balancing things around it.
I've always thought of Dragon King Armor pieces as being quite balanced, I agree with your point earlier in hammering down on it's focus, let it be good at stacking STR, as long as the scaled amounts aren't changing.
RE: Dragon Peasant - caliaca - 08-02-2023
(08-01-2023, 08:06 PM)Autumn Wrote: Dragon King set pieces grant the stats in addition to increasing the soft cap and are already meta pick items, Akmedis is horribly strong to compare it to currently, and Dragon King Armor has always had a high base armor stat. Is there something I am missing in people suddenly thinking it's bad? I'd like to think it's the opposite. I'll give you that on the gloves, crownbleeder is generally better for basic attackers.
I believe the archetype that Dragon King is supposed to fulfill is weaker than a few other setups, that being the melee warrior focused upon special attacking rather than basic attacking. That said I was always looking forward to if there would be a 5-set effect for the pieces, something critical and well meaning.
I'd be okay with more STR granted from each piece personally, something like bumping it up to +10% STR per piece, you can only go so far in scaled STR before the soft caps bite your ass anyway.
I don't like to be 'that asshole' but it's only a heavily picked item cause people don't do the math on it. Most who do swap off.
Quite frankly, the hand piece is never the correct option. It's not just crownbleeder it has to deal with, but also rogue's work gloves for basic attackers. For mages, it has to deal with idol as well, something it cannot hope to compete with.
Armor value wise, it's 7 physical, 0 magical.
Akmedis is 7/4.
Bellplate is 10/5
Bodyguard is also 7/0
Halfplate, which is now somewhat useful due to ability to get resistances is 9/0
Terrasque is 5/2 so it has the same full armor values
(Something to note is that Akmedis and Terra both weigh less than DK as well, making them more able to be bouldered.)
and so on. Of heavy armor picks, it is tied for the lowest raw armor values.
The main problem with bumping each part up to 10% is it now overvalues the accessory while actively keeping the hand piece and chest piece still slightly undervalued.
Here's the calcs https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/460611064808210443/1136227019458367570/image.png
It'll leave the hand piece as a 'never use' tier in terms of stat effeciency and the chest piece as a very rare pick where it is actually more beneficial than the other options (as a 2nd piece when you're running about 52 str).
It does make the accessory somewhat overvalued though. Which might be good since its a 9*. I'm still heavily against treating each piece as the same though, mostly due to the reasonings I talked about above.
RE: Dragon Peasant - FaeLenx - 08-02-2023
It'd be better if the set bonus was something that actually rewarded you for picking up more than one piece of it. I could spitball numbers about it, but I'd do a poor job compared to all of the spreadsheet fu happening here. Right now the accessory is really good because it gives decent stats for an accessory while also being in the convenient shape of a helmet to hide your stats. Everything else is lackluster alone or even with all 3 because they all basically just give you +3 scaled strength.
Wouldn't it be better to make it so that having 2 and 3 would reward you just a bit better? That is the point of item sets in most RPGs.
RE: Dragon Peasant - Poruku - 08-03-2023
Imagine thinking +3 scaled str that ignores cap is bad
Dragon king is definitely overrated, I think people go bonkers for that % increase to stats, and use dragon king on builds that really don't make that much use of it, and could use better options. Perhaps out of not knowing what else to get. But it's actually good on certain builds that really want high strength such as shaitans or certain high swa builds. I'd say the best one is probably glove, then helm maybe if you wanna use the mask of metal trait, and then the armor is ok if there's nothing better and you want damage.
Is it better than akmedis/crowbleeder+/any good accessory? Eh, not really, it depends. But stacking damage high is something that has an inherent value. The reality is more complex than comparing numbers after all. That's of course just for pvp. In pve? More damage is all you want, so of course it's good.