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+--- Thread: [Zerans] Bad reception (/showthread.php?tid=105)
[Zerans] Bad reception - Ryu-Kazuki - 11-14-2014
I wanted to talk about how Zerans, despite how much I like them, and their lore, are a very under rated race. Most of the abilities are very weak or not very useful in a combat situation (which isn't a big deal, but what most people focus on).
Quote:50% - You sense the flow of focus within enemies, letting you see their current and maximum FP when you examine them in battle.
This is the biggest problem here; it's useless, any race regardless can see both of these values, and it's not even a very useful thing to need, anyway. Honestly I can't see a reason to need to know that even in a PvP situation.
I propose a change on the 50% affect to be more related to their focus based senses; perhaps allowing them to restore 2 FP / turn while they are 50% FP max or above. Or moving it to the 25% or 0% affect and moving the other affects forward in percentage.
That's really all I can think of right now, but I'm a bit disappointed in how little Zerans can actually offer in combat compared to races like Vampires and their other ancient counterparts. But at least they still have better racials than lupines.............
Re: [Zerans] Bad reception - Rendar - 11-14-2014
They're about as useless as Liches, which actually have a racial trait that goes "Well you're going to die a lot. Enjoy this trait." Seeing them get some love would be okay, I guess.
Re: [Zerans] Bad reception - Ryu-Kazuki - 11-14-2014
I might take some time to drum up some more suggestions for them later, but dear God they are one of the most maltreated races right now because of their racial abilities.
Re: [Zerans] Bad reception - Lolzytripd - 11-14-2014
I'd like it to atleast be a cool, interesting trait, not some rinky dink fp regen, seriously 2 fp regen, fucking useles,.
The horns are sensory receptors, perhaps if they showed all the magical properties of being, Ie
Shows their Will, Res, magic resistance, and all elemental resistances and weaknesses.
Re: [Zerans] Bad reception - Soapy - 11-14-2014
"[url=http://neus-projects.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=300#p300 Wrote:Ryu-Kazuki » Fri Nov 14, 2014 12:37 am[/url]"]any race regardless can see both of these valuesMaybe that's the problem.
"[url=http://neus-projects.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=300#p300 Wrote:Ryu-Kazuki » Fri Nov 14, 2014 12:37 am[/url]"]compared to races like Vampires and their other ancient counterpartsYeah, man. The new Vampire growths are so much better than the old Zeran ones, and Liches are so good at.. uh.. keeping items when they die..
"[url=http://neus-projects.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=300#p300 Wrote:Ryu-Kazuki » Fri Nov 14, 2014 12:37 am[/url]"]But at least they still have better racials than lupinesYeah, no. Instinct and immunity to Blind are not even remotely close to 'literally does nothing'. I know you've been gone for a while, but try to remember how reality works.
Also, still better than humans. Especially after the level 35 class thing.
Re: [Zerans] Bad reception - Ryu-Kazuki - 11-14-2014
"[url=http://neus-projects.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=315#p315 Wrote:Soapy » Fri Nov 14, 2014 3:34 am[/url]"]"[url=http://neus-projects.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=300#p300 Wrote:Ryu-Kazuki » Fri Nov 14, 2014 12:37 am[/url]"]any race regardless can see both of these values
Maybe that's the problem.
No, it's not the problem. The problem is that effect even exists in the first place. It's useless and no one in their right mind would even think it's a remotely good effect. "Oh herp derp, I see their FP, what good does that ACTUALLY do for me?" Or maybe we like Zerans having a scouter on their head to determine their enemies' power levels.
"[url=http://neus-projects.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=315#p315 Wrote:Soapy » Fri Nov 14, 2014 3:34 am[/url]"]"[url=http://neus-projects.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=300#p300 Wrote:Ryu-Kazuki » Fri Nov 14, 2014 12:37 am[/url]"]compared to races like Vampires and their other ancient counterparts
Yeah, man. The new Vampire growths are so much better than the old Zeran ones, and Liches are so good at.. uh.. keeping items when they die..
Zerans
STR WIL SKI CEL DEF RES VIT FAI LUC
Base 4 4 6 3 3 3 6 0 1
Growth 20% 25% 25% 10% 15% 10% 40% 0% 5%
Vampires
STR WIL SKI CEL DEF RES VIT FAI LUC
Base 4 4 6 3 3 3 6 0 1
Growth 20% 20% 20% 15% 10% 10% 40% 0% 15%
So yeah, these guys aren't much different than each other in terms of growths, pretty equal in total and mixed around in some areas. Let's take a look at their skills.
Zerans
Superiority
Type Racial
Race Zeran
The air of superiority that follows a Zeran is magical and powerful. Any enemy within 1 tile is affected by it, depending on if the Zeran is facing them or not.
Facing: The enemy feels slightly intimidated and impatient, reducing their STR and WIL by 2.
Not Facing: A subtle annoyance at being ignored fills them, making them easier to predict and sense. They suffer -10 Hit if they attack the Zeran.
Enemies that are at least 3 levels higher than the Zeran do not suffer from Superiority.
So, let's take a look at the pros and cons. Green is pro, red is con, neutral means well neutral.
[*] You reduce their STR and WIL if you're facing them. Sure you can stack that onto Charisma and make a decent little debuff. So there's nothing wrong here.
[*] The enemy gets a -10 to hit if you're not facing them. Wow, how about those non-dodgers? That sounds pretty useless right there for them. Oh wait, we also have a crap ton of HIT mods and Blessed increases Accuracy also now. This effect was good, at the start of the game, but now it's only a tiny little bonus compared to the way things have advanced.
[*] Overall? Oh yeah, this part.
Quote:Enemies that are at least 3 levels higher than the Zeran do not suffer from Superiority.Well, if you're not at least lv 58 in PvP, it doesn't do you much good against certain characters. Against monsters in a dungeon lv 60? Hahahahaha, it doesn't even count at all.
Crown of Heaven
Type Racial
Race Zeran
The horns that protrude from all Zerans. It is a physical similarity to Zera, as well as being seen as the trophy for the victory of Heaven's Contention. They are extremely hard, and are sensitive to the flow of nearby magic, detecting it in a sense. Similarly, they are also sensitive to how well stocked the body is on focus, functioning better the more there is.
Grants +1 DEF. If you currently have FP equal to or greater than the listed percentages of your maximum FP, you also gain additional effects.
25% - Your horns are sturdier, gaining another +1 DEF and +1 RES.
50% - You sense the flow of focus within enemies, letting you see their current and maximum FP when you examine them in battle.
75% - Your horns have their full color, not paling to black in the slighest, making them much more magnficient, and improves their function as receptors. The effects of Superiority on enemies are increased by 1.5x.
100% - The peak of focus and power, your ability to sense magic with your horns makes it much easier to enchant objects successfully, increasing your Skill when doing so by 1.
[*]By the basic effect, and if I'm reading that right, it's saying you gain +1 DEF for every % of FP you match up to. I can't complain there so much. Even a +1 to DEF for free isn't bad either.
[*] Another free +1 DEF / RES? Hot damn.
[*] Again, who would -want- this, and what good does it even do me in a combat scenario? If anything it'd only fit Grand Summoner as a decent effect because of how it can aid you in your offensive skills. Other than that? It's useless, period, there's not even an argument there.
[*] Not bad, I'm getting better because I stockpile more? I mean -15 to HIT isn't bad, but again is useless for non-dodgers and the stat debuffs can't be complained about.
[*] This has no combat support whatsoever and only even is good for people who enchant items. I'd almost say this was useless but it can at least do its job. Other than that? Kensei? Black Knights? Etc? No dice.
Vampires
Sanguine Crest
Type Racial
Race Vampire
A Vampire's power increases with how much Essence they have absorbed. Based on the numbers below, if a Vampire's Essence is less than that number, the stats listed next to it suffer a -2 penalty. However, if it's equal to or higher, those stats receieve a +2 bonus instead.
25: CEL
40: DEF
55: STR, WIL
70: SKI
[*] So over all, this isn't bad, you gotta gain some to get some (not the right saying, but still). If anything you get better boosts just by not even using Essence and getting some special little mods in stats because of it. If anything I think this is more pro than con.
Banquet
Type Racial
Race Vampire
Range 1
3 M
Power icon Power --
Target icon Target Single
Enemy only Enemy Only
The Vampire's method of feeding, striking the target, and using the brief instant of pain to draw in life essence. Performs a basic attack on the target with a -X (X = target's level or 10, whichever is higher) penalty to Hit. If the attack hits, it deals Dark damage, and the Vampire gains Essence equal to the target's VIT (or the Vampire's VIT - whichever is lower). If the attack is performed at the target's side, the Hit penalty is halved. If the attack is performed behind the target, there is no Hit penalty.
[*] Looking at this, there's not much downside other than the HIT penalty. Even afterwards, you can simple Flank and Bank in order to restore Essence. Is it a necessary skill? No. Is it good and beneficial? Yes.
Silvermists
Type Racial
Race Vampire
Range Self
3 M
Power icon Power --
Target icon Target Single
Ally only Self Only
Silvermists is a racial skill possessed by Vampires. It is a single-target, ally-only skill that costs 0 FP and 3 Momentum to use.
An occult mist that rejuvinates the undead. At the cost of 25 Essence, the Vampire regains HP equal to 1.5x their VIT (min: 25 HP). Any excess HP will be converted into FP instead.
[*] Holy shit, (no that's not an anti-vampire joke) the only downside to this is that you'd risk losing some stats, which at most is -2, and even then if you use this at 100 Essence, you still have 75 and your stats are protected. How is this bad? If anything this is one of the best skills the ancients have.
Lunar Lunatism
Type Racial
Race Vampire
Range Self
3 M
Power icon Power --
Target icon Target Single
Ally only Self Only
A powerful controlled rage that a vampire at the peak of their power is capable of. Can only be used at 100 Essence. Every round, you lose 25 Essence, but until you hit 0, you gain the following effects:
* Sanguine Crest will treat your Essence as if it were at 100.
* +2 to all stats, including Move.
* Your critical hits will Frighten the target, giving them -30 Hit, for 2 turns.
* You recover HP and FP every round equal to 50% of your VIT.
* Banquet cannot be used.
[*] For four rounds, I get +2 to everything, including move.
[*] My crits frighten the target, so wow Kensei Vampires are gonna have fun. Even Archer Vampires might get a little too. Or VA ones with daggers. I mean holy shit, that's pretty good.
[*] What?! I get HP and FP regen too?! Is this Christmas? A BK Vampire could get so much from this it's not even funny.
[*] Well, I can't use banquet for 4 turns. I think I'd do a nasty amount of damage to an enemy by then.
[*] I lose all my Essence and get a -2 to my stats until I get my Essence back.
So far, Vampires have Zerans on a leash. Let's look at Liches.
Arcane Order
Type Racial
Race Lich
The stability that defines the ritual that creates a Lich. At high amounts of Focus, this pact is at its strongest, nullifying the chance of divine intervention. When at 50% FP or higher, the Lich cannot critically, nor can they be critically hit.'''
[*] You can't crit me, I can't crit you. Sounds pretty good unless I'm a mage, which might make it go either way. Of course, I'd probably nuke them before they got the chance anyway.
Dissipate
Type Racial
Race Lich
Upon destruction of the physical body of the Lich, the arcane energy that actually comprises the Lich returns to the phylactery. Liches will often enchant their belongings to return along with it, greatly reducing the chance that items will be dropped upon defeat in battle.
[*] Not too bad, but then again, it's better than nothing and doesn't have much of a downside at all.
Magia Detremus
Type Racial
Race Lich
As they are beings mostly comprised of arcane energy, the vessel of the Lich has an almost limitless supply of Focus to draw upon, although it is limited still by time. Increases your maximum FP by 50% (after all modifications), but your maximum HP is reduced by 50% (after all modifications), due to the fragility of the vessel.
[*] So yeah, this sucks. But overall, looking at most classes and what defenses you put up to protect yourself, it's not a death wish. Especially mages.........
So far, looks like Vampires still kick the shit out of all of their ancient counterparts. And don't even get me started on Elves. So far, Zerans and Liches are bottom tier, and even then I'd prefer a Lich over a Zeran based off racial effects.
"[url=http://neus-projects.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=315#p315 Wrote:Soapy » Fri Nov 14, 2014 3:34 am[/url]"]"[url=http://neus-projects.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=300#p300 Wrote:Ryu-Kazuki » Fri Nov 14, 2014 12:37 am[/url]"]But at least they still have better racials than lupinesYeah, no. Instinct and immunity to Blind are not even remotely close to 'literally does nothing'. I know you've been gone for a while, but try to remember how reality works.
Also, still better than humans. Especially after the level 35 class thing.
Okay, you got me there, Immunity to Blind is great. So if anything you've just told me how Lupine are -better- than Zerans by that one effect. Lupine don't even really have a downside other than, "I have to have lower HP in order to get my effects" and even then, Lupines get the shit end of the stick compared to the others, who can fly, run fast, are better at magic.
As for Humans? I'd rather take Human racials over the current Zeran ones. That's how much some of these things bother me.
So, I'm moving this over to Balance Fu since it seems to be a war of the races.
Re: [Zerans] Bad reception - LadyLightning - 11-14-2014
Let's just be accurate here.
A Vampire spending essence on Silvermists doesn't reduce their stats by 2, they reduce them by 4.
If you have 15 base STR, and you have 60 essence, that +2 bonus comes out to 17 STR. However,
if you only have 50 essence, not only does that +2 bonus go away, but you get a -2 penalty on top
of that, for a total of 13 STR.
Re: [Zerans] Bad reception - Ryu-Kazuki - 11-14-2014
"[url=http://neus-projects.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=344#p344 Wrote:LadyLightning » Fri Nov 14, 2014 12:58 pm[/url]"]Let's just be accurate here.
A Vampire spending essence on Silvermists doesn't reduce their stats by 2, they reduce them by 4.
If you have 15 base STR, and you have 60 essence, that +2 bonus comes out to 17 STR. However,
if you only have 50 essence, not only does that +2 bonus go away, but you get a -2 penalty on top
of that, for a total of 13 STR.
It's not a reduction of 4 if your debt is only 2 in the end. It's like finances, a +2 is a Net of 2 while -2 is a debt of 2. Without the bonus you're at 0, so losing 2, you'd be at -2 which is only a debt of 2, not 4. It's simple math. I understand what you're saying in the equation, but you're overlooking the fact you're even getting a bonus in the first place. You never had a 17, you net 2 and debt 2 when you had less Essence than required. Your math is correct, but your insight is wrong.
Even then, some of these things are only stat dependent on what class you are, so some of them don't even harm you. Other things like Cel can always be made up for in bonuses and things. So even with a -2, it's still not the end of the world in terms of loss. It's honestly a fair drawback for a powerful ability and the combination abilities it gets. It serves its usefulness despite having a weakness (which everyone hates because people can't stand to not be better than others, it seems sometimes), unlike some other races who get little to nothing, or virtually useless abilities overall.
Hell, I'm not even saying nerf Vampires here, I'm just saying some other races need a little bit more affection than Vampire favoritism, or anything that's remotely powerful and has less downsides to it. Starting with Zerans would be nice, seeing as for such great winners of Heaven's Contention and important guides to life, they're underplayed, hated against ICly, thought of as cows and sheep OOCly because of their horns, and they get pretty outclassed by the others in their category (honestly wondering why they're the only ancient with a lifespan, but that's not much of a big deal).
Re: [Zerans] Bad reception - Slydria - 11-14-2014
Well, here's some suggested changes in an attempt to make Zeran's more useful while trying to keep suitable effects.
*I've put the actual changes in Bold.*
Superiority -
The air of superiority that follows a Zeran is magical and powerful. Any enemy within 1 tile is affected by it, depending on if the Zeran is facing them or not.
Facing: The enemy feels slightly intimidated and impatient, reducing their STR and WIL by 10% (min. 2).
Not Facing: A subtle annoyance at being ignored fills them, making them easier to predict and sense. They suffer -15 Hit if they attack the Zeran.
Enemies that are at least 5 levels higher than the Zeran do not suffer from Superiority.
Crown of Heaven -
The horns that protrude from all Zerans. It is a physical similarity to Zera, as well as being seen as the trophy for the victory of Heaven's Contention. They are extremely hard, and are sensitive to the flow of nearby magic, detecting it in a sense.
Similarly, they are also sensitive to how well stocked the body is on focus, functioning better the more there is.
Grants +1 DEF, +1 RES and +1 Skill with Enchanting.
If you currently have FP equal to or greater than the listed percentages of your maximum FP, you also gain additional effects.
25% FP - Your horns are sturdier, gaining +1 DEF and RES per 25% of your maximum FP.
50% FP - Your horns act like a conduit for focus, any beneficial effect applied to you that normally lasts for 3 or more Rounds will now last for 1 Round longer.
75% FP - Your horns have their full color, not paling to black in the slightest, making them much more magnificent. The effects of 'Superiority' are multiplied by 2x.
100% FP - The peak of your focus and power, you emit an otherworldly sensation that instills a sense of dread, not unlike how it would feel to stand before Zera himself, albeit on a much lesser scale. All enemies under the effect of Superiority also become stricken with Hesitation. (LV = Zeran's Level/3%, min. 5%)
Re: [Zerans] Bad reception - Ryu-Kazuki - 11-14-2014
I like these, other than the HIT reduction. At most it'd be -30 and with people fussing about dodge and Kensei lately it's a bit much. But that's just my opinion.
Also, for the new facing effect, that could be deadly depending on how high their stat is, but that's where I'm on the fence.
Overall these are a lot better and I can't really complain.