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+--- Thread: Resist and Momentum (/showthread.php?tid=11098)
Resist and Momentum - zericosmic - 04-30-2024
Alright, potentially controversial take here, and yall know I'm biased af on this topic.
Losing momentum on hitting resist, is absolute ass for certain classes, while barely effecting others. But more than anything, it is just not fun.
I'm aware this would likely cause a large shift in balance, but like genuinely.. If someone removes your main class mechanic, what happens? You just refuse to fight them, that's what happens nearly every time. What's the point of fighting someone if the mere act of attacking them, doesn't let you play your class in any kind of fun way? So you just dodge fights with them, or try to beat them at the resist game to make sure that at least they're not having fun either.
Installing drowned woman pretty much shuts down any fleur build and most DH builds, have you ever watched a Kensei fight someone installed with this thing? It shuts down what is pretty much their core mechanic. Same goes for almost any other elemental weapon, for the low low cost of equipping one accessory item (which most people can afford to flex) you can shut down almost any Fleur Duelist, elemental weapon DH, or elemental weapon Twin Dance build. Electric Axe at least requires more investment with a shield, or a few kits alongside goat boots, but most elemental weapons take next to no investment to counter.
You wanna be a DH running Ensui? You have a chest piece, boots, and an accessory slot that can mean "no combination fighter for you", a duelist running Gryphon Wing? All it takes is a single accessory slot. You want to counter any and all physical Fleur builds? Take summoner, one of the widely considered "best classes" and install drowned woman.. The fact that you shut down their main class mechanic is also compounded with the nice, tiny, little bonus of also cutting their damage by about 35% or 50% in the case of drowned woman.
But more than just PvP, you tell me you're having fun fighting an event boss for god knows how long, and you're stuck playing half a class, because I rather quickly lose interest in a long fight if I know the main reason I enjoy playing my class, is gone.
RE: Resist and Momentum - Ray2064 - 04-30-2024
As an Ensui user I agree
But, in more seriousness, I always found odd how SL2 has so many of those 'win more' or 'lose more' mechanics, resists included. You lower your opponent's damage to a significant degree, then potentially disrupt their action economy right atop of that, lowering that said damage even more.
Again, this is rendered more significant by the fact those builds the most affected by said drop in action economy pretty much build their entire archetype around it, rendering them crippled. (See, basic attackers of any sorts)
The mechanic is probably this way as a way to balance out Spells, which RES alone isn't enough for most of the time due to how much damage they can dish out without much effort (Which is a whole another can of worm in itself) , but you then get stuck at the weird point where some weapons will inflict PHYSICAL elemental damage as part of their flavor, like the dragon swords,some shurikens or E-Axe, something that's actively detrimental due to those forms of resists being more common than the physical trio of Pierce, Slash, Blunt, and as such, actively lowering their damage output a good amount of the time.
Not to mention scoring a weakness is very rarely seen in a PVP scenario.
The momentum drop really only punishes basic attackers more than anything else, whereas a pure mage wouldn't care much about that 1M they missed out on, unless they would've liked to use the same spell twice.
Someone could tell you that it's on you if you mono-element, but, again, some builds can't have that luxury. (again basic attackers, unless you're lucky enough to pack Au Dela. Which is just as easily resisted ,so.)
RE: Resist and Momentum - Autumn - 04-30-2024
From what I can see the main problem when it comes to resists sapping momentum is when 1m mobility or fleur is brought into the equation (or rarely 4m skills or other combo mechanics such as with DH and Verglas), I think the former (that being 1m mobility) could get even more out of hand if the system was changed even a little bit, so I have a smarter, safer suggestion than that, that might help specifically fleur builds anyway.
For whatever reason, resists can trigger and sap momentum from the attacker during a critical hit but the opposite cannot occur, that being weaknesses not granting additional momentum, now I'm not in any ballpark of giving potentially +3m on a crit, but I think this is very inconsistent and hitting critical hits should not incur a resist penalty either, to match it's inability to gain weakness momentum.
That only seems fair doesn't it?
RE: Resist and Momentum - Skullcatrons - 04-30-2024
They still massively dwarf your damage. The momentum penalty exists as to 'discourage' you not to repeat that again. Generally in cases of single-element classes like Verglas. They are generally going to have to use different method of delivering attacks.
Such as Verglas' Winter Bites, Aquamancers' Crest Break (Further enforced by Crest Surge invocation which sets your class to 9), and Indignant idols.
But this thread focuses on those critbuilds. Those who can crit, and have fleur trigger and practically attack three time in a single battle. If they get resisted, they lose one momentum, which means they can't do three-attacks, and is forced to be stuck doing two attacks. It really sounds like you're fighting someone who knows you'll be trying to fish to attack three times.
On other hand, yeah I think Summoners' install shouldn't be as strong as they are. Nobody likes a counter-class class.
RE: Resist and Momentum - zericosmic - 04-30-2024
(04-30-2024, 01:37 AM)Autumn Wrote: From what I can see the main problem when it comes to resists sapping momentum is when 1m mobility or fleur is brought into the equation (or rarely 4m skills or other combo mechanics such as with DH and Verglas), I think the former (that being 1m mobility) could get even more out of hand if the system was changed even a little bit, so I have a smarter, safer suggestion than that, that might help specifically fleur builds anyway.
For whatever reason, resists can trigger and sap momentum from the attacker during a critical hit but the opposite cannot occur, that being weaknesses not granting additional momentum, now I'm not in any ballpark of giving potentially +3m on a crit, but I think this is very inconsistent and hitting critical hits should not incur a resist penalty either, to match it's inability to gain weakness momentum.
That only seems fair doesn't it?
Personally I wouldn't mind not getting momentum on hitting weaknesses, but I feel like that would hit mages way, way harder than the people benefiting of resist minus momentum getting removed.
RE: Resist and Momentum - matthewmwps - 04-30-2024
(04-30-2024, 01:57 AM)Skullcatrons Wrote: It really sounds like you're fighting someone who knows you'll be trying to fish to attack three times.It's not exactly rocket science anyone playing ghost or Kensei is going to fish for that extra action.
The fact resist sapping momentum can just deny a lot of playstyles is a shame in my eyes. I much prefer the approach of empowering where possible, rather than punishing. Imagine, for example, procing resist on an opponent gave them a small buff, rather than taking your momentum. The mechanic still plays into this aspect of discouraging certain moves while not outright denying their use.
Now obviously rewarding someone who resists an attack with extra momentum would be far too much even with a set cap, and I’m not super sure what specific buff would be best here, but I do think this general concept is more enjoyable than what we have.
RE: Resist and Momentum - Rendar - 04-30-2024
Getting a weakness proc, as a caster. Isn't just (at least) +25% extra damage.
It's +25% extra damage on that attack.
And then you get an extra momentum. Which gives you an ENTIRE extra action which can be offense/defense, etc.
Hitting this is more than fine in my eye, frankly the entire Extra Momentum / Lost MOmentum system can go away, and the entire game would be in a much healthier state. Namely Mono-Aquamancer wouldn't be slapping people for a 30% water weakness guaranteed so they can get 3 attacks per turn, ontop of each attack dealing 30% extra damage.
RE: Resist and Momentum - Autumn - 04-30-2024
(04-30-2024, 02:06 AM)zericosmic Wrote:(04-30-2024, 01:37 AM)Autumn Wrote: From what I can see the main problem when it comes to resists sapping momentum is when 1m mobility or fleur is brought into the equation (or rarely 4m skills or other combo mechanics such as with DH and Verglas), I think the former (that being 1m mobility) could get even more out of hand if the system was changed even a little bit, so I have a smarter, safer suggestion than that, that might help specifically fleur builds anyway.
For whatever reason, resists can trigger and sap momentum from the attacker during a critical hit but the opposite cannot occur, that being weaknesses not granting additional momentum, now I'm not in any ballpark of giving potentially +3m on a crit, but I think this is very inconsistent and hitting critical hits should not incur a resist penalty either, to match it's inability to gain weakness momentum.
That only seems fair doesn't it?
Personally I wouldn't mind not getting momentum on hitting weaknesses, but I feel like that would hit mages way, way harder than the people benefiting of resist minus momentum getting removed.
Oh no, what I'm saying is that hitting a critical hit on someone while also hitting a resist shouldn't be a momentum neutral exchange is all, given that hitting a weakness + critical proc at the same time doesn't incur both benefits, it shouldn't incur a negative either (Specifically only the interaction with critical hits), it would have no effect on how mages currently interact with resistances. Currently hitting a 25% resist incurs a negative momentum penalty on mages but it doesn't overall affect their gameplan unless 1m mobility or enhancements were involved, as most spells don't cost 4m.
I have no desire to affect how weakness momentum works in it's current state, I think weakness fishing is a viable strategy with some elements (water/lightning/ice) and the possibility should be open to others too.
The most polarizing cases of getting your momentum eaten mostly belong to basic attackers as their gains and skill costs don't allow flexibility in that regard., with pierce resistance being such a viable option you might change your build to account for it in cases you don't have crit evade.
RE: Resist and Momentum - Poruku - 04-30-2024
This would certainly be a good thing for the game. I love omnires builds as much as the ndxt guy but this would actually allow dev to put a bunch more random resists in the game and not make people focus on trying to hit the magic number (25). It's a nerf to omnires and resists in general, but I think it's honestly needed. Hitting res feels terrible every time
RE: Resist and Momentum - Skullcatrons - 04-30-2024
(04-30-2024, 02:47 AM)Rendar Wrote: Namely Mono-Aquamancer wouldn't be slapping people for a 30% water weakness guaranteed so they can get 3 attacks per turn, ontop of each attack dealing 30% extra damage.
![[Image: z2rce7R.png]](https://i.imgur.com/z2rce7R.png)
Obligatory meme required here.
Outside of Mono-Aquamancers, almost no other classes have actual meaningful way to score a weakness in PVP fight. If you know your racial weaknesses, you would cover that as fast as possible as to avoid getting wiped off the face of earth. Which then ultimately ends up never procing weakness from an person who knows the elemental weakness..
It's really just Mono-Aquamancers you would want nerfed, instead of trying to kick mages with their elemental weakness-proccing. Only they can really force a weakness if they're monos. Because that's all they can do. Indignant Idol+Mono Aqua tend to be most silly thing, and that's your real issue with 'em.